Natalie
Hey Bec. Today we’re sitting down with Anna DeShawn to talk about reframing what it means to think big.

Rebecca
Like go big or go home?

Natalie
Yes. The whole tree, or not a cherry on it.

Rebecca
That’s a saying?

Natalie
Yeah, totally. The internet thesaurus is an amazing thing. I looked it up.

Rebecca
We are here today with Anna DeShawn, founder of E3 Radio and co-founder of The Qube. Anna is a Chicago-born digital media artist and social entrepreneur who’s riding media into its next era by using digital media streams to center and celebrate black, brown, and queer folks of colour.

Natalie
Hi Anna.

Rebecca
Hi Anna.

Anna
Hey y’all, thank you so much for having me.

Natalie
Thanks so much for being with us. On this episode of Sister On!, we’re looking to reframe what it means to think big. When we met in LA at the Podcast Movement conference, it was you who inspired this topic for me. I seriously heard you ask this question of whatever panel we’re in — and I have no idea even what the panel was, which is so funny. It wasn’t the panel that was so striking to me. It was you. So there was just this voice over on the corner of the room that spoke, and I heard you ask this question. It was the fact that your question was not focused on you and your podcast, it was about you and developing five of them all at once. I just thought that was amazing. So can you talk to us about that? Can you tell us what that’s all about?

Rebecca
How you jumped from just doing one thing to doing five?

Anna
I think it’s the story of my life, to be honest. And Natalie, that means a lot. As someone who oftentimes doesn’t speak in large groups like that, I question myself all the time. So thank you for affirming me in that, that I should maybe say more in those public forums in that way. But I have always done more than one thing at a time. My parents built me like this, and I follow their lead in that way. They were both people of service, who gave in lots of different ways, all at the same time, all the time. I was raised as someone who — I wasn’t a one sport athlete, I was a three / four sport athlete. I didn’t just play one instrument, I always played three or four instruments. I wasn’t just involved in school activities — I had out-of-school activities, I had choir, I had band. I just was always an active person. So as an adult, that just translated into how I live my life, for good or for bad or ugly. Learning how to manage that, and also manage my own capacity, has also been something I’ve worked through as a growing human — and when it’s too much, when it’s not enough, when do I feel like I’m actually fulfilling my purpose. So I’ve gone through lots of phases with this thing. It’s never been one thing for me. It has always been go big, go home. Give it everything you got, or don’t give nothing at all.

And so what we’re doing right now, with The Qube, is so much of that. The whole idea here is that there’s opportunity inside the space to shape it so it doesn’t have to be like any of these other mediums that we consume every day. Television, movies, you know, there’s a lack of diversity for decades on decades on decades on decades inside of these industries that have plagued them for so many years. But podcasting is still kind of a baby in this world of media, and we have an opportunity to shift it. And I feel like when I went to go find black podcasters and brown podcasters and queer folks of colour podcasters inside of these larger podcast directories like Apple and Spotify and Google, I can’t find them, and I was incredibly frustrated by this. I wanted to solve it, and as somebody who’s had their own radio station for a long time and saw the same problems — centered around telling queer folks’s stories, I’m like, “We can solve these problems at the same time. We can put the radio station on Apple, but we can also create a space of discovery of some of the best content from underrepresented creatives, and create a space for them.” Data keeps telling us that 43% of podcast listeners today are people of colour, and so there is a need. I believe there’s a big blue ocean of opportunity to create a space for them inside of podcasting. I’m always thinking big, and creating these podcasts are just another piece to this whole puzzle that we’re creating.

Rebecca
Have you always loved this form — this intimate radio-esque form?

Anna
Always, but through circumstance — and let me add some context to that. I wanted to be the next Robin Roberts — I grew up an athlete my whole life. My dad plays semi-pro football for the Chicago Bears. I grew up a gym rat. He’s a coach. I wanted to be on ESPN doing sportscasting, play-by-play announcing, going to all the games, and Robin Roberts was it. She was the only black woman on ESPN, ABC Sports, she was everywhere. I was like, “I want to be her.” So I went to undergrad to study radio / TV production, I was on the path, I was doing play-by-play stuff in undergrad. But it became clear to me that they weren’t people like me on television. When I say that, again, there are black folks on television, but there aren’t masculine of centre lesbian queer folks on television. How I present when I dress up is not how people on television present when they are sitting behind a reporter’s desk, or out in the field — even today that does not exist. And I was like, “I don’t think this is going to work.” I don’t know if anybody is actually going to put me in front of a television to do this reporting the way that I’d want to do it.

I ended up getting an internship at a radio station in Des Moines, Iowa, where I went to undergrad (I went to Drake University). I was interned on Tom Joyner in the Morning, and then I was like, “This is pretty dope,” — when I showed up on time (that’s a whole nother story, because Tom Joyner got up early, I got yelled at a lot in that job). But people would call the station and be like, “Anna, I love hearing your voice in the morning. I love that you’re part of the station.” All I was doing was the weather and the traffic and recording Tom Joyner’s drops and all this stuff. But I was like, “This is pretty dope. I can sit here in my pajamas, get in front of a microphone, and people listen. People are giving me feedback that this is really great.” And then after that, I kind of just fell in love with the medium, because I started getting the radio show on the college radio station we had, and with a friend — it was just a fun way to communicate. I grew up with it. Chicago’s a big radio city. My mother, every day she listened to Tom Joyner, and then on the weekend, she listened to Herb Kent. For my radio junkies listening, these are like legends in the game. There’s a different type of relationship that you have with your favourite radio DJ than your favourite favourite television anchor — they’re just different. You learn more about them, they have opportunities to be more creative, to share more. They’re not just reading the script all the time. It’s just a different relationship. So I just really fell in love with it after that.

Rebecca
Yeah, it’s funny, whenever you see news anchors being off the cuff, it always sounds so weird, right?

Anna
Like, “What are you doing?”

Rebecca
Yeah.

Anna
“You aren’t supposed to say that. Get back on script.”

Rebecca
Exactly. “You’re trying to make a joke — it’s not working.”

Anna
It’s very different. It’s just a different medium, you have different expectations. Podcasting is the evolution of radio in so many ways. It’s on-demand radio in so many ways. I think the accessibility for folks to find their voice, to share their voice, share their opinions, is really powerful, and podcasting and technology combined are creating amazing opportunities for that today.

Natalie
I’m thinking what you just said about how conversation creates this kind of space and opportunity — do you have any memory of the moment where I kind of accosted you and said, “I need to talk to you, because I have a really big idea.” I just wanted to make that moment happen, because I felt vulnerable doing it. There was just a funny thing of like: we’re strangers in this space, and at the same time, we have this connected experience of podcasting that’s obviously drawn us all into this space. But we all have such different stories in that space of how we are experiencing the emerging universe of podcasting. In the pursuit for content in this industry, how often do you have to navigate feelings of weariness in terms of what people ask of you — what you’re being asked to do and share, or do you see every potential connection as a potential springboard for something good and new?

Anna
Every connection is a potential springboard for something brand new — every single one of them. I fell in love with Shonda Rhimes’s book Year of Yes, and it’s so well done in how she describes what she did for a year of saying ‘yes,’ of absolutely saying ‘yes’ to pretty much absolutely everything, and what that opened her up to. To the scary keynote speeches and universities, to saying ‘yes’ to her kids who wanted to play with her for five minutes when she’s being called on set to Grey’s Anatomy — just saying ‘yes’ in these moments. So I do remember meeting you, I do remember that moment very well, because I also had just met Brenda, who leads LES Media. So we were sitting there talking, and I felt actually really bad because I know you wanted to talk to me, but we were so engaged in our conversation, and I felt bad that we couldn’t talk at that very moment. But I’m glad that we were able to connect outside of that moment as well. So yeah, I remember.

Rebecca
So you’re definitely a ‘yes’ person?

Anna
I am a ‘yes’ person. Yes. And if I can do it, I will do it. At the same time, let’s be clear — there’s always times to be discerning. I’m a big person around energy, and I’m a big person around how I feel about a particular moment or situation or meeting. If the energy feels right to me though — yes, absolutely, because I think you just never know who you don’t know. You don’t know until you don’t know. I do my best to remain open to opportunities and possibilities, because it’s proven to be a winning strategy for me, to be honest. I meet people all the time through somebody else, through another connection — that’s how this world works is through relationships.

Rebecca
But you were saying you’re not necessarily comfortable in big groups — where you feel comfortable is the one-on-one.

Anna
Yeah, if I’m speaking, that’s one thing. But when I’m in the audience, and standing up and asking a question, I get a lot of anxiety. I get a lot of anxiety, I question myself. “Should I be asking this? Is this a silly question?” Even though every teacher I ever had said, “There’s no silly questions,” — but this might be the one. The one that I’m asking right now might be the one that people say, “Well, maybe Anna, that was a little silly.”

In so many ways, I’m an introvert. In so many ways, the microphone gives me an opportunity to say what’s on my mind and speak my piece, and it’s my outlet. If I’m on the stage giving a presentation, it’s because it’s something I’m passionate about, and so that too is my outlet. But oftentimes, I really would like to just sit and listen to what other people have to say. Being an active listener I feel like is a really big part of being a leader, because everyone’s coming from their own space. Everyone has their own social location, and I think the more we can listen, the more we can learn. So oftentimes in those big groups, I just prefer to sit in the back somewhere and take it all in, very rarely say anything, but I was very interested because it was the Audible panel. I was very interested in what they were saying around that.

Rebecca
What did we learn from the Audible panel? Do you guys remember?

Natalie
I got one email. I got one thing out of it.

Rebecca
Do you remember, Anna?

Anna
They’re producing some new stuff, and they’re continuing to invest in podcasting, and they see the value in it. That’s pretty much what it was.

Natalie
That’s a beautiful reframing, Anna. I’m getting negative, like, “Whatever, I got an email.”

Anna
These big companies, for Podcast Movement, it’s important that they show up in these spaces, because it’s important to know that these big companies are investing in podcasting, because that helps to push the industry forward. Now, do they have anything valuable to share to indie podcasters, or folks growing their podcasts? It could really be hit or miss. I mean, they can’t deny they’re looking for folks who have millions of followers, who have a big reach, because they don’t have time to do audience development. So there’s only so much they’re going to be able to provide indie podcasters on a big scale. What or who they’re investing in, it’s not part of their strategy — which I think is why it’s also so important for us to be aware of these other folks who are. Everybody’s got their space in podcasting, and there’s a lot of people who are invested in the success of indie podcasters, budding podcasters, and folks who want to grow a platform. I think there’s a lot of amazing people and associations, organizations who are investing in that.

Natalie
So how have you navigated then? As somebody who’s growing such a large scale project like yours, like Qube, how have you navigated boxes that entrepreneurial folks (often women) get put into? Are you the type of person to embrace the box that somebody might try and put you into, and then actually say, “I’m going to use these constraints to blow their minds, I’m going to use this to my advantage”? Or are you the person who will not be boxed in? You’re like, “The box is not for me,” and you’re challenging the status quo? Or are you a combo of both things, because it’s just the inevitability of circumstance.

Anna
As a black queer woman in America, I absolutely do not take anybody’s box. I don’t even fit in a box — and that’s actually just a beautiful metaphor for The Qube. I mean, that’s part of one of our statements — that we’re three dimensional in space. We won’t be put in anybody’s boxes. That we’ll have the opportunity to share our joy and spread our stories and share our wisdom through podcasting. So no, I don’t fit in nobody’s boxes. My mom would try to put me in a box, that didn’t work out well — even though, you know, the pictures are cute. Ruffle socks and matching hats and fluffy dresses on, every Sunday. But it’s just there is no box. There is no box here, and I don’t think anyone should set the precedent to have anyone else in their boxes. We’re all individuals, in this really beautiful way, and the only way the world remains beautiful is if everyone allows folks to be who they are.

Rebecca
Are you a pretty instinctive person about stuff? Or have you had to really train yourself to think in this bigger way?

Anna
I’ve always been a troublemaker. My mom tells a story that when I was younger, we were at Taco Bell or something (because I think that was one of my favourite places to eat, which is probably still true). So she tells this awesome story, that I was maybe five or six in a Taco Bell it’ll be right now. I was with one of her friends, and we were all just eating. It was around Easter time, and I grew up in a very religious family. My father’s side of the family started a church on the south side, but we went to a Lutheran church — so my dad’s side of the family started a Missionary Baptist Church and I grew up Lutheran. Two different worlds, so it’s the story of my life. But I always had two Easter speeches. We always went to two different services. This is my life. So they asked me to give my Easter speech as a practice thing. But I had also been learning about Martin Luther King and all these activists in school, and I guess I stood up on the chair and was like, “Martin Luther King was a great guy, and the white people killed him,” — just in the middle of the restaurant. She said it was so embarrassing, she told me to sit my butt down and be quiet.

But I have always been a bit of a troublemaker, always been in tune with activism and equality and equity for people. In high school I was the president of our student board and I played basketball — and we never had cheerleaders. We were better than the boys, and I’m like, “Why can’t we get cheerleaders?” So I started this whole campaign so we could have cheerleaders at our games, and we won. So we ended up having cheerleaders at our games as well, and I’m like, “Yeah, cause at least we win, so at least they’ve got something to cheer for.” So, you know, they started having cheerleaders at our games. It’s always how I thought, it’s always how I’ve been. My parents told me I’ve always been like this, always challenging what they’re saying, and I’m sure it has so much to do with my identity, because who I am is a complete contradiction to what the church said I was supposed to be — contradiction to how women show up, how women are supposed to show up in the world. When you start questioning things at a very young age, then everything is a big question, right? You start to reconcile, “What does this mean for me in my life?” And so I see that always, and every time I do one of those exams or quizzes like, “Who are you? What’s your personality?” they tell me that I am a systems thinker. I think about bigger pictures, I think about how I can affect a lot of people at one time. Whereas other people are better at one-on-one work — they’re called to do one-to-one work. That’s just never how mine comes out. I want to build a platform. I want to affect a lot of people at once to create some massive change, and that’s just been in my DNA.

Rebecca
What is an Easter speech? Because we grew up in the church too, but we didn’t have those.

Anna
No? Oh my gosh, it’s an annual thing. So when Easter comes, the kids always have a speech to give about Easter. You’re given something to read and you have to memorize it and say it in front of the whole church. So I always had at least two. There’s usually something around Christmas as well. When I went to my dad’s church, it was all my cousins too, so it was always fun. We’d all go up there one after the other and give our Easter speeches, and then everybody claps, even when you get it terribly wrong. So yeah, that’s my whole life.

Rebecca
Wow. Nat, we didn’t do those.

Natalie
I know. It sounds like it’s training for performing. That was church for us. There was a performative component — not performative as in, “I’m putting something on,” but more just the idea of it being training for public speaking.

Rebecca
A certain kind of performance, yeah.

Anna
Oh, 100%. Everything about my life in church was performative, from playing the piano to playing the organ to reading scriptures, it was my training ground for all public speaking. Let me just take a step back. That’s also why for queer folks, when they get condemned by the church, or thrown out of church, why it’s so crazy impactful on their life — because the first places you learn how to love and be loved is at home and at church. And so, as a queer person, if you get rejected from either one of those, it will change your life forever. Because church is where I learned I could speak. It’s where people told me, “Anna, that was great. Oh, you’re wonderful.” It’s one of the first places you get that type of encouragement from people outside of your family.

Natalie
Yes.

Anna
Yeah. It was a training ground for a lot of things for me.

Natalie
So then, in terms of big conversations — because you’ve obviously given many of them, right? You’ve had those performing spaces, but you’ve also had those moments with people in intimate spaces. What are some of the most inspiring conversations you’ve had in the face of those challenges? I mean, you just described the challenges of spaces that can be all of a sudden taking love away — that’s really what that comes down to. So what has been a conversation that has supported your thinking big mindset?

Anna
Y’all, I have a lot of conversations. That’s tough.

Rebecca
Could be more than one.

Anna
Let me say that over the years, I’ve had the opportunity to interview a lot of really amazing people who have created their own realities. Let me give you an example. I interviewed Lena Waithe five, six years ago, before Lena Waithe was Lena Waithe. She’s from Chicago, we’ve got mutual friends, we ended up having brunch one day. This was when when she was still writing skits for YouTube, and I was like, “Oh, I should have you on my show,” and she’s like, “Yeah, I’m going to LA, I’m in LA now, I’m trying to make my way to writing and all this other stuff.” I had her on my show. This was before all the good things that eventually happened, as we know her today. We were talking about how she was pursuing her dream at that time, and how she had just inked a deal for The Chi on Showtime. She was on her way, right? Those types of conversations, when you talk to people like that, you realize that truly you can create your own reality. You can think bigger than your circumstances, where you’re from, and you have to define success for yourself.

I’ll say another example is Angelica Ross. Angelica Ross lived in Chicago for many years before moving to LA and doing her thing. I interviewed Angelica probably nine years ago. At that time, she was a full-time recording artist, and so I was playing her music on the station, and she was starting TransTech and all these things that she was about to get up to. She was like, “Oh yeah, I’m about to make this thing happen.” So to see her go from that to who she is today — I mean, when you have these opportunities to meet these amazing people, and they create their own realities, you believe you can do it too. And truly, those types of things have been the most inspiring. People who I’ve had the opportunity to sit down and talk with about dreams.

I don’t know who was the quote on this, maybe it’s Disney or Einstein — maybe it’s Einstein. Just says like, “Our reality was somebody’s imagination.” Somebody imagined what this reality would look like — that speaks to me in so many ways. Thomas Edison had to imagine that he could control light, he could control electricity. Before him, it was darkness, and people was carrying around candles. People thought he was crazy to think about honing light for electricity. Now we can’t even think about life without electricity. He had to imagine it, and he had to fail a whole lot to home electricity. So I think for me, thinking big — yes, it started at home with my parents being of service. Started at home with my parents and my family, and then surrounding myself with people and interviewing people who have proven that you can create your own reality. That you can get out here and determine what success looks like for you. It just all inspires me to think bigger than what I would probably think if I had never had any of those experiences.

Rebecca
But it sounds like you’re fundamentally pretty hopeful about life, or possibility. When I hear you say that, I’m like, “Ok, the moments when I get depressed, stop being able to think big,” — how do you stay hopeful?

Anna
I am a pretty ‘glass half full’-type person, not ‘glass half empty’-type person. I am pretty hopeful, even in the face of all the madness that is happening right now around the country — in the US specifically, around LGBTQ folks, abortion rights, trans rights. I mean, there’s just a lot going on around me and in my world. But at the same time, I am hopeful because I also see young people coming out at a younger age, I see parents supporting their children at a younger age. I see in the state of Illinois, we’re one of the most progressive states in the country, and I see our governor, our mayor, our elected officials standing up for LGBTQ folks and folks of colour and fighting for equity in business and all sectors, in film — that inspires me. So yeah, I am hopeful.

I’m also angry, right? So so much of my passion comes because I’m also very angry. James Baldwin talks about anger, and how do you use it to transform the world? So I’m doing my work based upon what I was called to do, and what I try to do is challenge folks to do what they’re called to do, so that they can change the world in their own ways and in their own spaces. Because I do think we’re all called here to do something, you’ve just got to figure out what that something is. I don’t think it looks any particular way. I think it can show up in all types of ways. I think oftentimes, so many people just don’t know what that is, and haven’t tapped into it. I personally get depressed all the time. Therapy saved my life. I believe in therapy wholeheartedly, and I also believe in prayer and meditation. I believe in using all the tools. I believe in breathing. I believe in taking a step back. All those things help me to stay grounded and still remain hopeful. Otherwise, I’m just a sad person, and that ain’t no fun — like, life is too short for that.

Rebecca
It’s really fun for us to get to work together as sisters and be a source of strength for each other as we’re trying to build this thing. Who are your big support systems, or who do you really lean on? It’s really cool you have your cousin working with you.

Anna
Yes.

Rebecca
Is she one of them, or…?

Anna
She is, in her own way. In her own cousin-like way, she is. I’ll say also, I have a circle of friends who are incredibly supportive. They’re co-founders of The Qube with me. I lean on them when I need them, which is often, and they just go with me because they don’t know where I’m going on any given day. Because to your point, I am also a very inspired person. So if I get an inclination that this is what I’m supposed to be doing in this moment, all things stop — like, “I don’t care what I said last week, this is what we’re about to do right now.” Some of that I need to hone in on. Some of it is just like, “Well, maybe not today, Anna. Maybe this is something that could wait a couple of weeks, and you can talk to the team and align some of the resources. Maybe you should think more strategically about what’s happening.” Yes, there’s all that too. But overall, I usually go with my gut a lot. I go with my gut, I go with my energy, alignment, numerology — like, “What time is it? What time did this happen? Oh, this is absolutely a sign.” Anything could be my ancestors trying to talk to me, get off my vibration. That’s definitely me. But my best friends, my wife — I definitely have a core group, a circle that I keep around me and keep me safe. Love me, they pray with me. I pray for them, they pray for me. They’re a blessing to me in that way. So yeah, absolutely. I would never want to do this alone. It’s never any fun to do stuff like this alone — it’s only fun if all my friends can have some. So my hope is that we can have fun in building this thing, and see the change that we want to be in the world.

Rebecca
Right. Is your wife an artist too?

Anna
My wife’s a lot of things. She’s a diva. She’s a high femme, she’s a stylist, she’s a creative. She’s got so many businesses, I can’t keep up. She’s all of that. Yeah, she’s all of that.

Natalie
Our Sister On! experience, we use the hashtag #selfimprovement as one of the things that we put out there. But we definitely frame it as self-improvement for a better world, because it means that whole thing of: you want to make the world a better place, but you really have to just start with your own self-care — but in a way that is always forward-thinking. So it’s the constant turn away from the self to better the world. That’s very obviously what you’re doing, and so how is your effort to grow this body of work that is The Qube, and then everything that has come from before that, and to take up space, as you say, for black and brown queer folks in the media — how has that had an effect on your health? How do you stay healthy in the midst of all of what you’re giving in these creative pursuits?

Rebecca
And do you even like the word ‘self-care’?

Natalie
Yeah, because some people balk — I balk sometimes at it, actually, to be honest.

Anna
Self-care doesn’t bother me. This term doesn’t bother me. It’s all about the delivery, right, and who’s giving it? Some people say it sarcastically, which was probably why you balk at it — like, “You don’t mean that.” But no, the term ‘self-care’ doesn’t bother me. I think our job is to challenge what that means for us. It does not have to mean a mani / pedi. It could literally mean getting seven hours or eight hours of sleep — that could be your self-care. I know for me, if I get my seven hours of sleep, I feel like I have just treated myself to a luxury vacation. Because if I get my sleep, I feel like I’m a whole person. Oftentimes, I’m working a lot. My brain sometimes can start moving at 11 o’clock at night, and I’m like, “No, Anna, you need to go to bed,” but sometimes I’m just like, “No, I need to finish this and get this out.” So sometimes I don’t give my body the amount of time that it needs to recover from everything else that I did the day before — so for me, sometimes self-care is sleep.

I’m also very athletic. I do like to work out, I do like to run, I do like to lift weights, I do like to move my body in those ways, that helps me. If I’m not, after a while my wife is like, “Please get out of the house. Please get away from me, ok?” — because I have disturbed her self-care. I’m probably frustrated, it builds up anxiety — I need to let the endorphins go. I also find that working out allows me to think really clear. When I’m at those peak moments of physical activity, I get some of the greatest ideas in those moments. So that helps me to stay healthy. I do try to eat like a semi-healthy person most of the time. My other health practices — my prayer and meditation corner in the morning is my first stop every single day to ground myself and centre myself. I love affirmations, I love affirmation music, I love my mastermind journal. I do my gratitude reflections every morning from the day before. Remaining in gratitude helps me to remain healthy.

Rebecca
You’ve got a lot of strategies. That’s really, really cool. That’s inspiring.

Natalie
Yeah, it’s like a regimen. Like, for reals.

Anna
Oh, it’s a regimen. Yeah, it’s a regimen for real. Because otherwise I will lose it. You go through life, and I’ve hit a lot of walls — like creative walls, where I’ve had a lot of breakdowns. It’s because my mind is moving a lot, I’ve got a lot of things I want to accomplish, and then there’s been moments where I’ve just felt overwhelmed, and I realized it’s because I didn’t follow a plan. Like, “Anna, you must stop in the morning, after you’ve probably checked your email (which everyone says you shouldn’t do), like, ok, you’ve done that. But can you please check in with yourself now?” I have to do that, because the world is really busy, and life is going to live — life be doing a lot of living. So I really don’t know what I’m going to face throughout the day. If I go a day without going into my prayer and meditation corner and checking in with myself, the day will take me, instead of me taking on the day. And I realized that, and I was like, “You can fix that — you have control over this moment.” So it is a regimen, it is a practice for me — and everyone around me is grateful for it.

Natalie
That’s great.

Rebecca
Because I was going to say, we have one final speed round that we didn’t tell you about, Anna. It’s not scary, though. But if you were going to recap for listeners, like, “This is what you should do if you like to practice thinking big,” would you go back to that regimen, or do you have something else that you would say?

Anna
I would listen or read (whichever your preference is) the book called The Big Leap. That’d be my number one recommendation to folks who want to think big, because that book talks about all of the reasons why we don’t get to that big moment. All of our own self, all of our own stuff that gets in the way of us getting to that point. He talks about how you can achieve so much success, and then you will do things to bring you back down to where you were before. One example I like to give is folks who lose 20 pounds, and then you stop doing everything that you did to get you to the 20 pounds, and if for some reason you realize, you block yourself from getting to the 50 — so then you you go back to doing all the bad stuff, and you’re back to where you started, and then you just do it all over again. He talks about why that is, and he talks about what stops you from getting to that big moment, and gives you tools and practices on how to overcome that and tap into why you’re doing that.

I’ll give you a quick example. So from this book, I realized as a child, I was really talented. Things really came easy to me. Music came easy, sports came easy. I was good at a lot of stuff. In my church life, there was somebody else who was also really good at music, but he wasn’t necessarily good at everything else that I was good at, that I had tapped into. So there was this moment, someone had asked me, “Do you want to play in church?” I was like, “No, let Lonnie — let him do it. Just let him do it. He’s great at that, let him do it. It’d be great.” So I just decided to just dim my light in that area, and allow him to shine. But why did I do that, and why would I want to do that, and what caused me to feel like I couldn’t just be great at everything, all at the same time? Because clearly I was doing ok. So he talks through some of that psychological stuff that’s sort of just embedded — it’s because of the type of person you are, how you’re raised. You can’t get big and think big when you don’t believe you can be all of the things at the same time. So I would recommend The Big Leap. I’ve probably listened to it, I don’t know — I probably need to listen to it again — but probably at least three or four times.

Rebecca
Cool. Ok, I will.

Natalie
Yeah, I think I need that.

Anna
Yeah, please tell me what you think when you do. I think it’s a game-changer book.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Natalie
Absolutely. Ok, here we go, Bec. Speed round. Speed round for Bec is really big questions, so Anna, really, it’s not going to go very fast.

Anna
Ok.

Rebecca
One question we had to eliminate from the speed round was, “What’s your biggest challenge?” I realized that’s not a very speed round question, is it? That’s a big, long, thoughtful question. So that one’s out, don’t worry. Ok, first question: what’s the last new skill you learned?

Anna
Last new skill I learned… wait, let me look on my phone, because I’m sure it’s something with my phone. Ok, ok. It’s nothing sexy at all. But I learned how to put my life into projects. So I have put my entire life into separate projects in order to track and manage my tasks of my life, and I have found a platform that works for me.

Natalie
What’s that platform?

Rebecca
What platform is it?

Natalie
We both need it.

Anna
It’s called Asana.

Natalie
You know, that’s totally a sexy skill, actually — anything that gets one organized. Ok, what’s something that people commonly misunderstand about your profession?

Anna
That I’m an extrovert, and that I always want to talk.

Rebecca
Ok, the funnest thing you did today.

Anna
I set up a sister to record her podcast today, and so that has been fun. And I’m excited to be able to help facilitate that.

Rebecca
One of yours?

Anna
Hopefully.

Rebecca
Ok, nice.

Natalie
How would your siblings or a super-close friend describe you? Say, three words.

Anna
Kind, thoughtful, sweet.

Rebecca
What do you need to be creative?

Anna
Space, time.

Natalie
Ok, last one, really important. What’s for dinner?

Anna
Good question, because I ain’t cook. So it’s really sad, I actually need to go to the grocery store and make the menu for the week. What I want is some turkey legs, slow roasted with green and red bell peppers, and some brown rice and green beans with potatoes.

Rebecca
I wish we could serve that up to you. Very nice. I was like: if you said Taco Bell, that would be the perfect circle — we would end on…

Natalie
Circle back, I know. I actually was waiting for that.

Anna
But it’s Monday.

Natalie
It’s true. That’s not the weekend.

Anna
No, it’s like after I’ve had a lot of tequila.

Rebecca
Yeah, that’s when you want it.

Natalie
Anna, thank you so much for taking this time with us. You know what, what I hoped I would walk away from Podcast Movement with was a point of connection — people who inspired me and also just do really good in the world. So you’re living out what we strive to make happen with Sister On!, so just thank you for being that in the world.

Anna
Thank you for asking me to come on. I’ve had a lot of fun, y’all are great. I can’t wait to share this with folks. And so, thank you. Thank you for the space.

Rebecca
Yeah. And good luck with The Qube.

Anna
Thank you so much. So everyone, go join the waitlist — https://theqube.app, and go join the waitlist so you’ll be the first ones to know when the app drops. It’s going to be great to discover the best BIPOC and QTPOC podcasts I hear.

Natalie
Amazing. We’ll have all of that also listed in our show notes, so super dupe.

Anna
Thank you.

Rebecca
Ok. Thanks, Anna. Take good care.

Anna
All right, you too.

Rebecca
Bye.

Natalie
Bye.

Anna
Bye.

Rebecca
Oh yes, some house business. Don’t forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is actually really important. Consider a donation on Patreon if these reframing conversations have supported you or someone you know. And please sign up for our Sister On! newsletter which we send out every Friday. It comes with an original recipe from Nat which, I tell you, her recipes are really good. All the links are in our show notes. Love, Sister On!