Rebecca
Hey Nat.

Natalie
Hey Bec.

Rebecca
Have my arms outstretched to you, getting in the podcast zone.

Natalie
I was going to say, we don’t have to do a virtual hug. We’re like, you know, vaxxed — but that’s true. Just get in the zone. We could just hug.

Rebecca
We could always stand up and touch. I’m sorry about your car trouble.

Natalie
Thanks. It’s going to be a whole new adventure moving on past today. My 2005 CRV is dead.

Rebecca
Kicked the bucket.

Natalie
It absolutely kicked the bucket, right in the middle of the Jane and Dundas intersection. It was very stressful.

Rebecca
That is stressful.

Natalie
It was a lot of honking, and I was like, “I can’t do anything!”

Rebecca
Why would people honk?

Natalie
People are so angry.

Rebecca
Like, why would they think you would be…

Natalie
Wanting to be there? I know. No, revving and nothing’s happening, because it was the transmission, man, that car is dead. So I’m mourning it, and at the same time, trying to be a little bit excited about what’s coming.

Rebecca
A new car is coming!

Natalie
A new car is coming down the road that is my life.

Rebecca
In possibly a garish color.

Natalie
No, Clifford said no to garish. But I do think that I wouldn’t mind trying something that’s not, you know, black or gray. Just to sort of spice things up a bit. We’ll see what’s on the lot. We did talk last podcast about supply chain issues.

Rebecca
Oh yeah, because there are in cars, right?

Natalie
Yeah, I think that’s a real thing. So I’m going to have to be very conscious of the supply chain issues in relation to this purchase. So anyways, I feel stressed about it. I’m trying to just laugh it away. Because I have not had to have car payments. It’s been five, six years, right? Anyways, here we are.

Rebecca
Well, I look forward to driving with you, Nat. In a safe car.

Natalie
You have been a touch stressed in that.

Rebecca
I get so stressed in your car. I have been waiting for this day, actually. Your car does that weird jolting thing that you don’t even notice.

Natalie
Well, that might have been the beginnings of the transmission —

Rebecca
Do you notice the jolt your car does when you increase in speed?

Natalie
Well, yeah. And it stopped jolting today. Just stopped. So that part of it.

Rebecca
There was another passing this week — of Stephen Sondheim.

Natalie
Oh, that’s a much more serious passing. A human life. Absolutely.

Rebecca
Which made me think of you in music theater. Do you have any memories of any of his musicals from ESA?

Natalie
Yeah, I remember some of the other classes doing stuff.

Rebecca
Obviously they would have, right? West Side Story, right?

Natalie
I don’t think that’s Sondheim. You can Google it. I know that the one Sondheim song that I did was Send in the Clowns. I mean, everybody sang that.

Rebecca
Oh no, not West Side Story. No, yeah.

Natalie
Is it?

Rebecca
He wrote the lyrics.

Natalie
Oh, did he?

Rebecca
For the original production.

Natalie
Well, there you go. Thank God for Google.

Rebecca
He just wasn’t the playwright.

Natalie
But Send in the Clowns was definitely his song.

Rebecca
Can you sing a bit of Send in the Clowns?

Natalie
“Send in the clowns. Where are the clowns?”

Rebecca
Oh, yeah. Did you do that one?

Natalie
Oh, yeah. Full on did that. I was fifteen. Got all emotional when I sing. Everybody gets emotional when they sing that song.

Rebecca
Do you remember me doing, “Anyone can whistle.” Do you remember that one? Which is Stephen Sondheim. Do you remember when I took those singing lessons with that woman?

Natalie
I do.

Rebecca
She was trying to get us all to sing in our forward head voices or something. So I was trying to belt, so we were belting. And then we did a recital — some song, I was unnaturally trying to belt it. I remember you and dad came to the recital, and I just have this memory of you guys looking completely horrified at me trying to belt this song, possibly Anyone Can Whistle. “Anyone can whistle…” Do you remember that?

Natalie
No, I have no memory of that whatsoever.

Rebecca
Definitely dad was horrified because I think he didn’t even say, like, “Good job.”

Natalie
Maybe I was just so used to these ridiculous music theater songs that I’m like, “Bring it.”

Rebecca
That’s how you do it, that’s how you sing it.

Natalie
This is what we do in that world. Oh my goodness. No, I don’t remember that at all.

Rebecca
It was weird. I don’t know what I was doing with those singing lessons. Maybe I was just trying to tap into my… I don’t know.

Natalie
Well, music theatre major. I mean, you did go on obviously, and become an actor, writer, producer, all those things. You are very close to the art world in that respect.

Rebecca
Not music theatre. That’s not me.

Natalie
You know, Frankie sings all the time. When he builds, especially when he plays with Lego, he sings, and he’s always making up songs. So I might have missed the music theatre gene, but I might have passed it on to him. So he may end up being that character.

Rebecca
Well, I can teach them how to belt.

Natalie
That’ll be excellent, because it’s not coming from me. He actually said to me this week (thinking of him building and all those things), and it was the most inspiring quote. He said, “Mama, I’m a curious guy. My mind is filled with so many question marks!” I really loved it. I think when he’s telling me that, he’s quite literally telling me that he closes his eyes and sees all of these question marks in his brain, which is just so — I don’t know — it’s so beautiful. In the same breath, he also took apart mom and dad’s remote controls for their fancy bed this weekend. In his curious way, he changed all the buttons.

Rebecca
And Violet totally threw him under the bus, did you notice that? “Who did this?” we said to them. And she was like, “Well, Frankie…”

Natalie
I do actually think that they did a lot of it together. I think his curiosity will maybe get us to Mars or something at some point. But in the meantime, it’ll be a bit of a process.

Rebecca
In the meantime, we’ll take apart a couple of remotes and really stress mom and dad out. The bed was in kind of a V shape, and I could just see dad stressing out at the thought — how was he going to get his rest, if the bed was in a V?

Natalie
It’s true. Frankie’s just backing out of the room. Oh, that little boy. Anyways, that specific quotation has inspired me this week. It’s only Tuesday, so we’re at the beginning of the week, but…

Rebecca
It’s inspired by this episode, which we’re calling…

Natalie
Well, I had two titles for this one. I had, “The best things come in twos.” But then I also had a subtitle called, “Moving house.” Shall I walk you through my thoughts on this? So I’ve been inspired by Frankie’s outlook on the world, specifically, this curiosity piece. I just think the fact that he’s claiming that is really amazing, and I would like to claim that because I think a curious perspective was accentuated for me this Sunday, when dad was talking about the word ‘genesis’. He was describing that word as meaning a new thing, a new birth. Then I went, “Ok, so like, a new opportunity, when you’re curious to find something new.” So I’ve been thinking a lot about that, I guess just because as it applies to my own mind these days (and maybe you got me thinking about it last time when we were talking about New Year’s resolutions, perhaps a little early for me and my brain). So now that’s been percolating for a bit.

Rebecca
You’re welcome.

Natalie
Thanks. So I’m curious to see if I can reframe my whole tired brain here, and return to the beauty of curious questions without feeling so tied to finding answers. And then dad also talked about an idea from the author Frederick Buechner, and I can’t shake this one — I’ve really been thinking about this a lot. Dad was sharing that Buechner said that we all have two homes. One is a home of memory and another is a home of longing. As soon as dad said that, I felt like something was missing in there, just for myself. Because I feel like one is so definitively looking backwards, and one is so looking forwards. I was just trying to work out my feelings on that one, and thinking about this idea of curiosity and newness and genesis. So this genesis place — like a new place. Is there such thing as a new home that exists between those two, the home of memory and the home of longing? Could there be something like a third home? Which kind of messes with my potential title of “The best things come in pairs,” but maybe it should be actually “The best things come in threes.” But there are other things I want to talk about that have two in it — the number two. So we’ll just see how we can play this one out. But anyways, I’m just wondering if the third option of a home in my brain might be a home of here and now, or maybe we call it like a home of new and now. So these are my thoughts.

Rebecca
New and now. I love that, Nat. That gives me shivers.

Natalie
Hmm! That could also be a title. We have three potential titles here.

Rebecca
That is going to be so easy when I go to putting in the title for this episode, there are going to be so many to choose from. I won’t even have to text you late at night. “What is this one called?” Yeah, that’s beautiful. Really beautiful. “New and now.”

Natalie
So it’s just a pondering.

Rebecca
I mean, it’s true. The home of longing. What was the other one?

Natalie
The home of memory is the one from the past, and then the home of longing. Wanting to situate in now, right? When Frankie’s so curious, he’s not curious to build something for his future. There’s nothing in there about, like, “What’s his next career move?” It’s just: he’s curious to know what’s inside that remote control right now. I actually truly believe in that little human’s brain that if he doesn’t quite get the answer, he will just ponder it. And he’s quite happy to ponder. Sometimes I wonder, like, “Where’s my Wonder?” I would like to be able to just wonder, as opposed to needing to come up with a definitive answer. So I’m kind of spinning there, but…

Rebecca
How to return to a place of wonder?

Natalie
Yeah, just pure curiosity and wonder.

Rebecca
It’s so hard to do that without leading back to productivity.

Natalie
Yeah. Did I say this last time? I’ve definitely told you this story. But the other day, I had a student drawing in class. You know, he’s eighteen, and he’s got a lot on his mind. He just came in, and he was really silent. He just wanted to sit there and draw. And it was wonderful. What he was drawing was amazing. I was like, “Baron, oh my gosh, that’s wonderful. Are you thinking of doing” — and then I stopped myself, halfway through my sentence. He sort of smiled at me, and I was like, “I’m not even going to say it. You don’t need to go be an artist, you get to just draw because you’re here.” So I could see it for him. He actually said, “No, miss, it’s ok. I know what you’re trying to say.” I stopped myself, he let the moment stop — so that it didn’t turn into, “Are you going to go do this for your job?” We start it so early with them. So we’re doing it for ourselves.

Rebecca
But do you think that means you’re a candidate for adult colouring?

Natalie
Yes. Oh my goodness, 100%.

Rebecca
Because it would give your hands something to do while you’re…

Natalie
Because I am always thinking, yeah. Sorry I cut you off.

Rebecca
Would that assist you? Is that the point of adult colouring or things like that?

Natalie
I think it’s supposed to be.

Rebecca
One of them, right? Maybe it relaxes the mind, so then you can open up to a state of wonder?

Natalie
Wonder. Newness. I think I would have to just give it a go. Because I could see also getting stuck on just making sure I keep everything in the line.

Rebecca
And that’s what I’m wondering, if that’s a way to look at that activity. When I think of adult coloring, my feeling on it has been, “Oh, I don’t need another thing to do.” That’s why I don’t want to. Even my experience of knitting (I’ve tried knitting a little bit), the kids really love it because it seems so antithetical to me or something.

Natalie
Quaint?

Rebecca
Quaint, yes. Yes. I feel like a grandma, they like to call me grandma. I do get stuck, I don’t know how to do it well enough to make a sweater. Elsie’s like, “When are you going to make me a sweater?” I’m like, “I don’t know how to do more than a line.” So we’re going to do towels or little rugs for your dollhouse, Violet. I don’t know, it has to be the right activity, I guess? Or maybe my wonder and curiosity needs to come from just sitting. I’m not sure. But you got excited when I said adult coloring, what are you thinking?

Natalie
Well, I think that my initial excitement was: the activity itself sounds really cool. I could see where my Natalie ‘no’s’ could show up and be like, “Oh no, that would totally disrupt me because I would have to color in the lines and all that,” — my need for control. But I also would say that I just like the idea of an activity — like cooking, right? I always go back to the cooking thing, because I get to keep busy while I’m thinking. I’m thinking while I cook.

Rebecca
Busy hands?

Natalie
Busy hands. But I mean, it’s not really that different, right? I can be thinking while I cook, I can be thinking while I draw. I could get to see something new in whatever shape appears on the page. But I appreciate that you recognize in me the need to be doing, so that I can feel that wonder. Sitting would not be a good thing. Just generally sitting and pondering — I’m not sure that is for me the easiest place to go.

Rebecca
How’s your meditating going, Nat?

Natalie
So I’ve put it on pause, but I’m going to start back up again. Because you gave me that free week on one app, and Tam’s given me a free week on another app. So I have to start hers, then I’d have to make a decision. But I will go back to it 100%, because I did like the initial feeling.

Rebecca
Because that’s what that makes me think of. Just the sitting.

Natalie
Yeah. But see how I veered slightly away from it, so it’s obviously not second nature yet. It’s still a goal. Anyways, all of these things are certainly thoughts worth pondering, but they also connect, in my opinion, with something that we’ve been gifted this week, which is another set of two. Wwo questions to reframe that were sent to us via Instagram. From our friend Marjorie.

Rebecca
Yes. I was so excited when I saw that. Thanks, Marge.

Natalie
So she shared with us on Instagram two things. I’ll read the first one, you read the second one? And then we can decide how we want to move through them.

Rebecca
I like how you said how she shared them.

Natalie
Well, you know why I did that — that was a gentle teaching moment for folks. There are so many other opportunities to share, because we’ve had — remember when Anne shared it as an email? And then we had another person, Nicole, share us a voice note. And now we’ve had Instagram!

Rebecca
So many ways to reach us.

Natalie
Oh my gosh. You could DM us on Twitter, we have so many options here.

Rebecca
You sound like — Elsie’s so sweet because she spends time with Simon’s dad on Tuesday, for piano. His dad is amazing if you want to foster wonder, because wonder comes really naturally to him. He was like, “An email — email is so exciting. And there’s a chain, and then you send one and another, and then another comes back, and another…” It was so sweet having Elsie explain it, because she’s so teenage about it and sweetly laughing. Yes, email is a legitimate way to talk at Sister On! We can go back and forth.

Natalie
That’s great. And then there’s Instagram. So on Instagram, here’s what Marjorie shared. This is one of two, right — sticking with our theme here of two. The best things come in pairs. “If you’re lucky,” Marjorie writes, “You have someone to look up to. A mentor. And as the mentor, when you are posed with a question that somebody wants help with, how do you reframe it for them when they can’t themselves? We all ask each other advice. I have people who are dependent on my advice, or are on my advice and vulnerable, but don’t always see the value in how I respond. So maybe my question is, how do I reframe someone else’s ask to make it clearer for them?” I think that is a very thoughtful question.

Rebecca
And then her second one here is, “I remember everything. What people said, when, and how it all went down. It’s a blessing and a curse. Reframing as an adult hopefully happens, especially if the memory happened long ago, so that we can move on. And I’m all for that because we are busy and brain energy needs to go to specific things we’re dealing with in the present. But I wonder if our reframing ever needs something from someone before we can reframe it in a healthy way, instead of just reframing to move on?” Interesting.

Natalie
I think in that last sentence, I might have used a different word instead of “reframing to move on.” Because I bet it’s instead of just moving on. I guess I’m seeing some serious connections between Marjorie’s reframe requests and my own desire for that thing I said at the beginning — for a new home, in this new and now. I don’t know. Do you see the connection there with me? Because we’ve talked about mentorship on this podcast before. But we’ve never delved into the question that Marge has actually presented us with, which is how do we nudge people gently — or not so gently — to take advice? Is that even possible?

Rebecca
You’re thinking like, nudging people into the new and now? Do you see it that way, too?

Natalie
Maybe, yeah. I hadn’t thought about that. I love how when we talk, you help me to see something from a totally different angle. I think what I was thinking about — in terms of just the desire for a ‘new and now home’, quote unquote, à la Buechner, I guess I’m just thinking of mentorship. Right there, when she brought forward mentorship, I was thinking of it as a new way forward. If somebody offers me a new direction, that I could chug my way down that road. I’d never thought of Marjorie’s perspective on this, of asking the question of: what does it actually mean to have to nudge people to go down a certain road?

Rebecca
And hers is a really specific context often, because she’s working with people with disabilities. I mean, I haven’t done that.

Natalie
Usually severe physical disabilities. The disability community — there’s great depth and breadth to the range where Marge’s work is.

Rebecca
Those are some really specific challenges, but I can definitely speak to the teen in my life — she’s not interested in taking my advice or nudging, if it comes too directly. She’s so funny. She’s doing this genius hour presentation — this is some school project where you have to research a topic — and she said, specifically, “What should I do for my genius hour?” She says it specifically, like she might want a specific answer.

Natalie
It’s like a trick.

Rebecca
I’m like, “Ok, well, what about a book?” “Nope.” “What about some music?” “Nope. It’s a terrible idea.” She’d be like, “Eww, mama. Eww, no.” So I’m like, “Ok, she doesn’t want me to answer.” I’m never going to give her the answer she wants, so I have to come around another way, and just be talking about something super casually. Or, you know, speak in ‘I’ sentences — you’ve taught me to do this. When she was in a bad mood the other day, my tendency is to say, “What’s happening? Why are you in a…?” You were encouraging me to come at it from “I…” or “My experience…” or “Sometimes when I feel…” and just coming around it that way. I wonder if that can apply to people that need nudging? Not coming at it too directly. I’m a really direct person. I love to hit things directly.

Natalie
Lots of people can’t handle it.

Rebecca
No, lots of people don’t like it. I think it can be uncomfortable.

Natalie
It can feel like too quick a punch.

Rebecca
Yeah. And maybe people want to be brought into the conversation more gently.

Natalie
That could be where this is going. I feel like the way that we could reframe that question is: how do we take on the role of mentor with a really open mind? Instead of, “How do you nudge that person into thinking a certain way?” Maybe really going forward with the “I” thing is: reframe completely the situation when you’re engaging with that person who’s a bit hesitant, and just start looking at this as, “What can I learn in this moment? How do I go in a in a new direction?” And then maybe they’ll follow.

Rebecca
Yeah, as they see me seeking something for myself…

Natalie
Maybe that could inspire. But even if it doesn’t, I think that’s the key there — the freedom to give oneself, as the mentor, the space to say, “I’m not going to even try and change your mind, I’m going to look at this as a new opportunity for my own growth in how I respond to whatever it is that needs to happen. And then, if you’ve come along for the ride, then that’s a bonus for both of us.” I imagine that that would be quite freeing.

Rebecca
I’ll be Elsie, you be the mom — I’ll be like, “I have a new genius hour presentation I have to do, mom. What should I do it on?”

Natalie
“What are you interested in?”

Rebecca
“Nothing.” Wait, bad actor. “Um, I don’t know… piano?” This is the first time we’ve ever done role play.

Natalie
“If I was thinking about you describing piano as something interesting to you, I would start to think that singing is really interesting to me. When I think about singing, I think about…” and then I could start going down a road here, where I start talking about my own interests in singing, and then I can see if she’s completely zoned out — or if she’s actually now going to follow on with the next part of the conversation to say, “When I think about piano, I do this.” She’s now seen how I went down a road.

Rebecca
What if nothing happens? Let’s try again. “I have to do a genius hour presentation.”

Natalie
“Ok, what are you going to do it on?”

Rebecca
“I don’t know.”

Natalie
“Does that feel scary to you?”

Rebecca
“No!”

Natalie
“Ok, cool. So let’s come up with some ideas.”

Rebecca
“I don’t want to.”

Natalie
“Ok, well, I’m gonna write my own genius hour presentation now, because now I’m kind of excited about it. Here are some things I’m thinking of.”

Rebecca
Oh my goodness Nat, you’re really good at this.

Natalie
You know why? Because I teach Grade 12s. And oh my goodness, 17-year-olds are no different.

Rebecca
I like how you parent that?

Natalie
Well, that could be how I might go about it.

Rebecca
As opposed to saying, “Why don’t you like that?”

Natalie
I think so. So many of my ideas are rejected by my students all the time. I used to teach credit recovery, and I had to help the students help me to come up with their assignments. I had like ten ‘no’s before I ever got a ‘yes’. So I’m snapping my fingers now, because I got really good at just going, “How about this?” “Maybe this?”

Rebecca
And not being hurt by it.

Natalie
And by the end of it, I wore them down because I had so many damn ideas.

Rebecca
They just had respect for you at a certain point.

Natalie
Yeah, there had to be something in there for the speed of my brain. There’s a bit of a duck and dive thing. So anyways, Marge, I wonder if somehow in there, the process of reframing as the mentor — your own process — creates openings for that potentially hesitant.

Rebecca
What do you call mentorship in that way — it’s just a conversation? Or is it being with, hunkering down with someone through their questions? I was thinking of the idea of holding space with someone, but then I didn’t like that term. Would you say it that way?

Natalie
I love that idea — of mentorship as really just conversation.

Rebecca
Do you like hunkering down?

Natalie
Maybe — like settling in with somebody, I could see that for sure. But the conversation piece grabs me when you say that, I think that there’s real potential in there. I think the danger of becoming the advice giver in a mentorship role is — and this ties back to the beginning piece of looking for wonder — I think that it’s hard then to remain new and curious and and wondrous about life if you always feel like you have to give the answer, because then you’re never just getting to explore. Whereas if it’s much more about guiding an option of a process — “Here are two or three ways we could go about this, and who knows what we’ll get to at the end, but at least we’ve got some paths to potentially walk on together.” That feels more like an opportunity for both parties. Certainly, that’s how teaching can end up being with me.

Rebecca
In terms of her second question about reframing needing something from someone before moving on — I just wanted to touch on that, too. That’s certainly the case for me, that I do often need something from someone before I can move on. I really like feedback, I like to get outside my head — so I can’t necessarily get healthy on my own. What do you think about that? Is that how you hear that?

Natalie
Is that how I heard Marge’s question?

Rebecca
Yeah. I’m all about the external feedback — probably even more so than you, right?

Natalie
Yeah, I think so. You’re more external processor than I am.

Rebecca
So do you resonate with that question, or do you think it’s legitimate? Sometimes, yeah — we do need something from someone, before we can move on?

Natalie
I 100% think that. So many of the various stories that I’ve shared of myself in this podcast so far have referred back to past problems in my life. It’s quick and dirty to go back to a divorce as a very tangible, “That was a hard time.” But to get through it and move forward in a healthy way has required many steps, and also much in the way of community. I’ve had to do some serious effort and time and energy put into reframing, but it’s also required other people’s perspectives. Because you can tell yourself a story, right?

Rebecca
And think you’ve moved on, or think you’ve worked that through.

Natalie
Yeah, absolutely. And maybe you have, in that moment — maybe I did in various moments, but then something else new comes along…

Rebecca
But in your own head, you can only rework it according to what you know — the knowledge you have, right?

Natalie
Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca
Ok, slight gear change, but I was bitching about something on Sunday, about something I felt sorry for myself for. Some victim moment. And you said, “Well, I have to spend a thousand bucks on my teeth. Does that make you feel better?” You said that verbatim, which offended me so slightly because I was thinking, “Oh, of course I don’t want you to have woes.” But then I was making my way through the end of that book I’ve been loving, Hell of a Book by Jason Mott, which I’ve been just talking about everywhere, on my newsletter…

Natalie
I love it.

Rebecca
Everyone go read my newsletter Observables. And then he wrote (it was like he was speaking to me!), “She gave him the same smile most people did now that his father was dead. It was a smile that tried to convey a message of sadness and empathy, but there was always an undercurrent of joy as well. It takes the misfortune of others to remind us of our blessings. Soot’s life had become a walking reminder of other people’s blessings.” Then I was thinking about that line — I hadn’t really considered that someone else’s misfortune could be a reminder of my own blessings. I don’t know why. Is that so very obvious to you when you hear that? But then I went, “Ok, your teeth — maybe that is a reminder of the blessing of my teeth right now, that are all intact. Thank you, Nat, for that little piece.” Can’t always see things on my own, Nat. Need you! That was my weird story to get us there.

Natalie
I like it. That’s a really great quote. and I’m also really glad that I could both irritate and be of use simultaneously. I totally see what you’re saying, and I can hear that in what Marge is essentially describing — what I’m hearing her describe as her own house of memory. She’s describing moving forward, but how to do it in a healthy way?

Rebecca
How does she move forward from her house of memory?

Natalie
Yeah. I think that a house of memory has a lot of rooms. I think we can move from one room to the next and be ok with closing the door on one, but then another one might need to get opened for a bit, or aired out, or whatever it is. You could tease that metaphor out for a bit. I really think that at the heart of it is that we need to have a really honest consideration of memory. My whole doctoral thesis was about place-based memory — literally memory as located in a specific place, like a building.

Rebecca
Which goes back to episode two.

Natalie
And I still don’t have it all figured out, not even close. It was three years spent writing that thing, and I still don’t necessarily have it perfectly encapsulated. That’s a lot of time spent thinking of what other thinkers think about memory. The reality is that so many people consider these ideas in really deep ways. It was interesting to me that it was reviewers who would write mean things about my words — that actually got me thinking, because some of them were thoughtfully sort of commenting on my ideas around education, but when it came to my memories, they critiqued them. They basically questioned — were they really true? Were they the right memories to put forward in a paper about prisons? There was just lots and lots of questions around my memories. At a certain point, it hurt. But then I also had to go, “Ok, maybe somebody’s outside perspective on my memories might actually proffer me a new way to look at my memories.”

Rebecca
So now, do you actually think maybe your memories were skewed in a certain way? Our memories are, right? They aren’t neutral.

Natalie
That’s exactly it. I can look back on that time and know that the stories I’ve told to myself over time are accurate — but as accurate as they can be. But I can’t go back to that Natalie, and I can’t fix a moment where I might have messed up back then. I might have to kind of give myself the freedom to gently look back on some of those memories, and allow myself the space to be putting on glasses that are maybe a little bit fuzzy on purpose, and accept that as a truth. I may never get to the truth, if that makes sense.

Rebecca
You mean that you were wearing fuzzy glasses when you wrote it?

Natalie
Yeah. But I might even still have fuzzy glasses on now when I look back at them, because the reality of those times is that they are —

Rebecca
You have fuzzy glasses on your fuzzy glasses.

Natalie
Yeah, oh my gosh. So many bad lenses. But at least if I’m naming that those lenses are a little bit scratched up, then I’m not pretending to then say, a) none of that happened, or b) the way that that happened definitively happened so clearly that this is the only way forward. If I allow myself some space to consider, through those scratched up bad lenses, that some of those moments might have had different nuances at the time than I knew how to see then. Maybe that gives me a new path forward. Certainly it allows me, in my new and now home, a new room that I can sit in for a bit and ponder.

Rebecca
Right, and changing perspective in the new and now.

Natalie
Yeah. Wouldn’t make space for a different kind of journey forward. To look back with honesty and striving for clarity is obviously a really good goal — but I also wonder if clarity doesn’t have to be the end result. Could we move forward in a healthy way, without things having to be perfectly clear?

Rebecca
I was also thinking about what Marge was saying about memory being a curse, how she’s experienced it that way and how she remembers everything. I’d be curious how she sees that after this little discussion about our foggy lenses. I wonder if that would resonate with her, or if she finds her lenses too clear.

Natalie
Yeah, and how to scratch them up a bit.

Rebecca
But it was making me think, when do we need to clamp down and stop replaying a memory? To interrupt the pattern of remembering something or replaying something. That I think is important for me, to just say that to my brain, “We’re not going to go down that path anymore. We don’t need to replay every moment of that, or to try to dissect it.”

Natalie
Well, and that probably is like a draw forward to needing the new home. The new and now. If we only have two homes, if we only have the house of memory and the house of longing — as in where to go forward — then where are we now? I love Buechner, man, but he missed. He missed a whole house!

Rebecca
I wonder, if we read the whole book…

Natalie
Dad will probably have to say, “Actually, there was a whole house…”

Rebecca
He would just say, “You didn’t understand it!” When he said it, the way I heard it was that the place of memory is the physical body.

Natalie
Yes. I was playing with the language. But I still think that there’s something…

Rebecca
He’s maybe missing.

Natalie
There’s a whole podcast here, though. We’ve now expanded on, so we get to play with these.

Rebecca
Yeah, we built something new out of it. But just using his words, yeah, it is missing in those titles. It’s missing this ‘now’ place.

Natalie
I think in relation to Marjorie’s question, that could also be missing — the wonder of the present, as opposed to the potential for getting stuck in the past. Maybe Marge and I need some opportunity proffered to us for some beautiful, wondrous present day moments where we get to just be curious in the now.

Rebecca
Walking.

Natalie
Yeah, together. Marge, let’s take a walk.

Rebecca
I think nature…

Natalie
Yeah, is an option — like a really holy option.

Rebecca
Right at the end, we always go into a crazy place.

Natalie
No, but I totally hear that. If I could be walking on the farm road right now, talking about this, it would make for an extra beautiful conversation.

Rebecca
Also, I feel like some craniosacral massage for you.

Natalie
I don’t even know what those words mean.

Rebecca
Lying down, and someone massages your head.

Natalie
Ok, I’m into that.

Rebecca
I feel like that could open up something for you.

Natalie
Ok. Marge too?

Rebecca
Marge too, yeah.

Natalie
Are we doing this together? Best things come in pairs?

Rebecca
Yeah, maybe. I’ll find a date for the day, too. A ladies health and wellness day — Sister On!

Natalie
New and now homemaking.

Rebecca
It’s all coming together. Follow up on that.

Natalie
Yup. Anyways, Marge, I hope that we’ve offered you something — certainly some meandering ideas of some potential value. But who knows?

Rebecca
You can’t force your teenager.

Natalie
That’s at the heart of it.

Rebecca
She’ll just call you dumb. Ok, I love you.

Natalie
I love you too.

Rebecca
Bye.

Natalie
Bye.