Rebecca
Hey, Nat.

Natalie
Hey, Bec.

Rebecca
How are you? You’re sniffly. We just agreed that we wouldn’t talk about how you’re sniffly.

Natalie
I’m a little bit sniffly, but it’s just like, you know, cat hair sniffles. Your cat and my cat have different kinds of hair, Bec. That’s just the reality.

Rebecca
I know. I have the sniffly kind of cat. I’m sorry.

Natalie
I love your cat.

Rebecca
And we’re recording in my bedroom and my cat sleeps all over this bed.

Natalie
So there’s just a lot of Coco happening everywhere, but that’s ok. I won’t sniffle throughout this podcast, I’ll just keep my sniffles in.

Rebecca
I don’t know if that’s possible.

Natalie
I’m gonna try.

Rebecca
Ok, so I read about this exhibit — this art exhibit I wanted to talk to you about. It’s called Shit Moms. I think the title is so perfect. And it’s by this Iranian artist whose name is Tala Madani. I don’t know if that’s how you say it. But basically, she just uses all brown. So it looks like shit, essentially, and it’s babies and a mom.

Natalie
But it’s not actual shit.

Rebecca
It’s not actual shit. At first I thought it might be actual shit, and then I was like, oh, that’s even crazier.

Natalie
Because there was a really crazy exhibit years ago in Barcelona that was actually done with actual shit. But this one’s maybe just paint.

Rebecca
This is painting. Yeah, and it says, “It features groups of babies and adult figures smeared in excrement, but it’s just brown paint. At some points, the mother figure is formed entirely of brown paint, and the babies appear almost as her captors. The mother is lost amongst the surrounding mess.” So basically, I think it’s a metaphor.

Natalie
I would say so!

Rebecca
Although not just a metaphor, because as a mother, you often are surrounded in shit, or shit is on you.

Natalie
I was cleaning shit off Frankie’s shoe the other day in High Park. So yeah.

Rebecca
Yes. Not even your own child’s shit, but it could be. How many times can I say the word shit? I think the point of the exhibit, of course, is to contemplate mothering — the role of the mother, pressures. I wonder how much are you actually meant to think about body functions? I don’t know.

Natalie
Well, I mean, so much of parenting is about bodily functions. I mean, up to a certain age, right? That’s kind of everything.

Rebecca
And even you last night — wasn’t Frankie not feeling well? You were probably deep in bodily functions.

Natalie
It’s true! And the stress of bodily functions in the midst of COVID is extra intense. So you know, talking with him about his poo. Like, “How was your poo?” “My poo was very solid mommy.” Ok, well then we can all relax. It was part of the conversation for sure.

Rebecca
Ok, this is my last reference to Miriam Toews’s new book. You can tell I have a crush on Miriam Toews. One of the characters — the young girl, they’re always asking her if she’s constipated or not. But basically it made me contemplate my own mothering, which is something I do all the time. And I definitely put a lot of pressure on myself to be a good mother, to be a great mother in ways that I don’t think Simon does. I don’t think Simon goes around thinking about is he a good father — I don’t think. Whereas that’s probably a daily thought: “How am I doing?” So then when I read about this exhibit, it made me go, “Am I a shit mother?” Or let’s talk about shit mothering.

Natalie
We’ve got a lot of reframing to do today Rebecca. That’s a lot to put on yourself, oh my gosh.

Rebecca
You don’t put that on yourself? How are you so healthy that way?

Natalie
I don’t know! I did it later. How old was Elsie when Frankie was born? Isn’t she seven years older than him?

Rebecca
Yeah. Or six. Five years older than Violet.

Natalie
That’s a significant period of time between when you started versus when I started this process.

Rebecca
So you just have that many more years of getting healthier?

Natalie
Maybe, and also watching so many — you, and then these other girlfriends of mine over time, having gone down the road of parenting. Also like, remember there was a time where we weren’t sure whether I would get to have kids. With my leg there was a consideration of can I even do the whole parenting thing. There was potentially some acceptance there or not.

Rebecca
So it’s made it maybe made you treat it differently?

Natalie
Maybe. Maybe it’s all about trying to savour each moment. As a little family, we watch TV every night, we watch cartoons as a trio. And that’s a really intense part of our routine.

Rebecca
I know, you’re so dedicated to that!

Natalie
But actually, in so many ways, both Clifford are very aware that this is it. This is our one kid. And we’ve got to just enjoy every single moment of it. We’ve been watching Centaurworld — I think we mentioned this in another podcast — which is like a super weird cartoon that’s on Netflix right now. But it’s awesomeness, I love it so much. But Clifford can only handle one episode at a time because it’s just too much.

Rebecca
I know, and you put me on to that show, and Violet loves it too. But she wants to come home from school, so I’ll pick her up at the bus at 3:10. And she wants to watch Centaurworld. I feel like I’m still in the middle of trying to think, and I try with her. And then she says, “Oh, you’re leaving now.” And then I feel like a shit mom! And I blame you guys for teaching her about this crazy show that takes so much energy to watch, even though it’s so clever.

Natalie
Yeah, it’s so clever!

Rebecca
I think you’re right about me having done it a little earlier, because I was just thinking about how in my early mothering I felt so alone.

Natalie
And I couldn’t be of any help in that because I didn’t have any kid…

Rebecca
Yeah, I think those early years — you can’t really explain it to someone that doesn’t have a kid. So you want compatriots, but I was never good at going to mothering groups, and I’ve always had trouble with parks. I actually find parks extra lonely. There’s something about you go to a park, and you expect to find companionship, I don’t know — but then all the parents are just in their own worlds, and everyone’s looking at their phones, and then your kid sort of connects with someone for a minute. I don’t know. Do you find them lonely?

Natalie
Oh yeah, no, I’m not good at them. I don’t enjoy them, unless I go on a playdate with a friend. And I have worked very hard to have a couple moms (shout out to those Moms because I know they hear this podcast and they’re so dedicated and loyal and I really appreciate them so much as friends!). Part of why I also love them going to the park is knowing that Frankie has somebody that I trust to play with, as well. Because as you say, it can be lonely. If Frankie and I try to go on our own, I don’t think either of us are super jazzed, because if there’s no one there… He’s very much like me — and like you as you’re describing it — he wants to connect with a person. So to just play randomly wouldn’t be his thing. So he’s definitely picked that up from us.

Rebecca
I feel like I would have appreciated, as an early mother, being told parks are going to be very lonely sometimes.

Natalie
Right, and you know what, you did — you warned me.

Rebecca
I warned you, but no one warned me!

Natalie
Yeah. You were failed. Really honestly, people dropped the ball on that one Bec, I’m sorry about that.

Rebecca
There was no one to tell me. Because I did it first, I was the earlier one of a whole larger group. So sometimes I think, “Ok, it would be nice to have one more child,” to take one more stab at it, to be doing the calm television watching that you guys are doing.

Natalie
Right, but it really makes me anxious when you say this line, because I’m not really sure that it would actually end up being that for you.

Rebecca
I don’t really mean it. I mean in this fantasy in my head, that I could do it one more time and it would be different this time. Be the calm, fun mom. I aspire to be — not distracted. That’s probably where I feel the shittiest actually — is being distracted.

Natalie
Right.

Rebecca
I hope you guys can hear Natalie’s face. Patient listener! You don’t struggle with that? C’mon Nat. You don’t struggle with feeling distracted? But you know what, that is the nice thing about your job (I know there are a lot of not nice things), that you do have a certain focused time. You have to go and be there from eight to three. And then you put it away.

Natalie
Well, and I can put it away because I’ve been doing it for 20 years. So any new teacher to the gig is listening to that going, “Are you crazy?” Because they’re working into the midnight hours. After 20 years I’ve basically said I will not work past a certain point, because I can pick it up again once Frankie goes to sleep. So I can take that chunk of time to just be with the family. But yeah, even with our neighbors — everybody wants to sort of one up each other with how hard their lives are, right? I was like, “This was such a crazy day!” And he’s like, “You don’t know crazy!” And in my mind I’m like, “Ok, tell me all your problems.” And his crazy was that there is no work-life balance, because work is from home.

Rebecca
I do empathize with that. If I don’t get started until later, if I choose to do weird things till noon, then I only have noon to three. I’ve just never been as disciplined — I know that’s how that’s how you got your PhD done, is you just sat down and wrote!

Natalie
I did actually, that was part of it. I didn’t feel like I had an option. There was sort of a rigor to how I chose to use my time, simply because I didn’t feel like I had the chance. Perhaps the beauty and challenge of your artistic endeavors is that it’s the illusion of time that you do have. So there’s maybe never enough.

Rebecca
When have you felt shitty, mom?

Natalie
Ok, well, I definitely felt shitty when we lost Frankie for like a full minute in the middle of Times Square in New York.

Rebecca
I don’t remember that. You went to Times Square with Frankie?

Natalie
Clifford and Frankie and I met his dad and his stepmother in New York for a weekend.

Rebecca
Oh, I forgot that.

Natalie
Yeah. And it was a lovely little hangout. We got to see them — they live in England, so this was sort of a midway point where they were in the midst of some holiday. This was obviously all pre-COVID. Frankie was maybe two and a half. There were four adults. I haven’t been to New York in so long, I don’t know what it’s like now. Obviously in COVID world, maybe it wouldn’t be as busy, but then even just in an early evening, was nuts. Just totally nuts. So there were four adults, and everybody just assumes in the midst of all of this craziness, that somebody is holding Frankie’s hand. And nobody was. And so all of a sudden, I look over to where Clifford is standing with his dad, and I’m expecting to see Frankie holding his hand. And there was no Frankie. And I lost my shit!

Rebecca
Did you scream?

Natalie
Yeah, it was a really kind of crazy moment, because I just started calling, “Frankie!” Because I had no idea. He was literally a few feet over. But Clifford didn’t know, and nor did I. Nobody actually knew. Frankie knew where we were, but we didn’t know where he was.

Rebecca
And he wasn’t holding anybody’s hand.

Natalie
He wasn’t holding anybody’s hand, and he was definitely away. So not far, but away. So that was terrifying. So we all took a moment. But I’m gonna say that Clifford has me beat on that one, because that was a very stressful shitty mom moment in my head because I was like, “How did I let that happen?” I definitely went there. But Frankie was just about three. I had now gone back to York to teach, and I’m doing my thing. And so Frankie woke up from his nap. And Clifford would — I remember him telling me that this was their routine, and they’re big on routines — so Frankie would go down for his nap, and that’s when Clifford would take his 20 minute power nap. So Frankie wakes up from his nap early and decides he wants mommy. And so he gets up. He was never good in the crib, so he was just in a little bed. He just hopped out of bed — when we lived in the condo, and we were 20 floors up — so he actually managed, he’s tall enough by that point to turn the little deadbolt, goes out in the hallway, goes to the elevator, and presses down. And he leaves. He wanted to find mamma, and he was going to do it. So Clifford heard all this, in this kind of sleepy stupor. He heard the door open, and then jumped out of bed, but Frankie was just fast enough — the elevator, for whatever reason, was on time. So Frankie was gone.

Rebecca
And he made it down to the lobby, right?

Natalie
He made it to the lobby, and Clifford didn’t know what he was going to do. Now he’s just in panic mode. So he actually stopped at the fourth floor for a second, because he’s like, “Maybe he went to the playroom…” he was just trying to think. Anyways, he gets to the lobby. The whole thing was probably five minutes, but Frankie had found his way to another mom, who was sitting on a couch in the lobby. And Clifford said that the look she gave him seared him through his soul.

Rebecca
Although he might have interpreted that, right? Clifford’s very hard on himself. Actually, you know who I should be having this conversation with? It’s Clifford.

Natalie
I get home from work and Clifford’s literally lying on the ground, face to the sky. Frankie turns to me and he goes, “Daddy’s had a very hard day.”

Rebecca
That is so interesting though because Clifford did those early years, right? He stayed at home.

Natalie
Yeah, this would be a more appropriate conversation to have with him.

Rebecca
You ain’t got nothing to teach me.

Natalie
Maybe that’s where I can teach, Bec — maybe it’s because I was looking at it through a different lens.

Rebecca
Yes, that’s true. I read this question — I bought the Maggie Nelson book, On Freedom, which I know we have to discuss.

Natalie
Yes, cause I’m not so sure about it. But anyways, that’s ok.

Rebecca
She has various little bits on mothering, and she talks about what a mother is — what can a mother realistically provide, versus what she’s expected to provide? I do find this interesting. It made me think, what’s realistic versus what’s expected? I just feel I have more and more anger towards Instagram, and just the expectation of the ‘super-love’ we’re expected to provide. Although I have super-love in my heart, but you know, this excessive self-sacrifice that we’re expected to do, and not have any moments of resentment. I mean, not that I want to see that on Instagram, I was thinking about this. I don’t want to see a whole bunch of angry moms. That’s not what I’m looking for. I can’t stop looking at Hilaria Baldwin.

Natalie
Why would you do that to yourself?

Rebecca
I don’t know. If there’s anybody out there who also watches Hilaria — I’ve stopped. I’ve unfollowed, and then I also look sometimes at Taza, and they both have mountains of children, like so many children. Like 100 children each. So I think I’m attracted to it. I’m attracted to these big families and all the smiles they put out all the time. But yet you know, it can’t be like that all the time. But those women, they seem so self-sacrificial, because if you have that many children — clearly, what kind of independent lives can you have?

Natalie
I’m not a psychoanalyst, obviously, but I do kind of want to go, “What hole are you filling?” But I don’t know.

Rebecca
So anyway, I feel like knowing all these things — I can know that, yeah, maybe they’re filling a hole, they might have tons of help. But then I still look at that and I can still go, “You know, I want to be able to be that perfect mom. And dress so cute, and be all smiles, and give them hugs constantly, and have my own career.” It’s funny, but for me in our household of only two kids, to get the work done that I want to get done, Simon drops them off in the morning. I need him to do that!

Natalie
Well, Clifford does pick up and drop off. I mean, I can’t even…

Rebecca
Right, although in our case, Simon’s the one with the like 9 to 5 typical job. We’ve laughed, I mean, he’s even laughed. He’s like, “Yeah, I’m totally the superdad.” He feels that way. And he’s like, “Yeah, they’re probably all wondering, ‘Where’s deadbeat Rebecca?’”

Natalie
No! Oh my gosh. Stop it, you two.

Rebecca
We’ve talked about it. Anyway, I don’t really think people are thinking about us at all. But it’s something I struggle with, my own perception. How I view myself, or what I want to be able to do.

Natalie
Well, you are really really inherently hard on yourself. I think that you come by that fairly in terms of our family — we are all high achievers, and we want to get things done.

Rebecca
Pretend like we can do everything?

Natalie
Probably — or not even pretend. I think generally, we’ve done well at doing lots of things.

Rebecca
Although fully, I can’t multitask anymore. I’m just saying it now, I just can’t.

Natalie
Those self-help people you say you listen to, I think they would all say that’s a good thing.

Rebecca
Yeah. Like put a coffee lid on a cup and have a conversation — I can’t even do that! I need to stop. I said to someone the other day, “I need to fully concentrate on this lid. Just do the lid. And then I can ask you all the questions I want to ask you.” Ok, but how are you going to interpret this question about what a mother can realistically provide? You said you were thinking about it completely different.

Natalie
Well, I think that, for example — Clifford and I look at what our week is. And I’ve signed Frankie up for one thing. Like he wants to do piano — well, does he want to do piano? I think he wants to do piano. He seems happy enough to do piano. And he’s now said he’s considering doing gymnastics. He’s considering this. So I sort of looked at Clifford and went, “Ok. So how is this all going to work?” Because if they’ve been having this conversation, then I want to say, “Well, then you guys can make this happen.” There’s a part of me that sort of is looking at this, and I think that’s a reasonable expectation. But I think that when I’ve heard you talk about activities, you want to expose the girls to all the things they could potentially want to be a part of, so they can figure out what they want to be, right? I immediately have boundaries around what I am even ok to consider for Frankie’s life, in terms of things he wants to experiment with, because I recognize that there’s going to be some part of my time that’s a part of that.

Rebecca
That’s so sane, Nat.

Natalie
I think that’s okay of me to say that. You know what, my mom used to do that, right? She always said we could do two things. That was her thing. I think maybe I took that on, maybe I adopted that. I don’t know, I just look at it and go, “There’s only so much I can actually do.” Now again, maybe it took getting sick, for real. Getting sick did happen before kids, so maybe that created a mindset in me — maybe I would have been a different mother had I not been ill. That could be a thing. I would just say, realistic provisions versus expected provisions — I don’t think I fall as prey to the expected provisions, because I don’t pay attention to the expectations heaped upon the moms around me (that I’m seeing, anyways).

Rebecca
And you’re not seduced by Hilaria Baldwin — is that even how you say her name?

Natalie
No, I’m not — I think so. It is interesting, right? Just this past week, didn’t they say that Facebook — and Instagram, they’re owned by all by Facebook, right? — but the Instagram Kids is not going to happen. They’ve actually put a pause on that project because of the recognition that Instagram is not good for kids.

Rebecca
I even read something about 16 to 18-year-olds. That they should even be acknowledging — up to 18 — the damage it’s doing.

Natalie
Right, but I don’t think it stops at 18. I think if something’s not great for little people, I’m not so sure it’s great for me.

Rebecca
I know. I need to pop on to Instagram, just for our podcasts.

Natalie
Yeah! Or to look at the recipes, or to see our friends for five seconds, or something like that, right. But this idea of going on and seeing — I recognize that I need to unfollow the celebrity websites, because I would do that for distraction, but I actually don’t really have a ton of room for distraction right now. I’m gonna cull my list. But that’s just a practice, I guess at this point now.

Rebecca
I’ve been thinking about one time, I was looking at Instagram and then the reels show up — and it was a reel of Britney Spears just in her little bikini. I don’t know, doing some like pelvic tilt or something, touching her bikini shorts? It was mesmerizing.

Natalie
Yeah, but she is mesmerizing.

Rebecca
And I was like what, so I’m just like watching a reel of Britney Spears touching her panties? Essentially.

Natalie
Well, that’s fair. And her conservatorship has now ended. So we’re all just rooting for her, right?

Rebecca
I know, we are rooting for her. So I was like, I think I can support this.

Natalie
This one I can get behind. But you know, everybody else, take them off. So I don’t know, I’m not saying that “Oh, Bec, how are you falling prey to all that and I’m not?” Obviously I am.

Rebecca
No no, I don’t see you as thinking those things — fully.

Natalie
I’m going to go back to the opening line of what does it mean to be a shitty mom? I guess there’s a part of me that would like to just think about getting rid of that phrase completely, even the joke of it. And just being like, how could that be a good thing?

Rebecca
Yeah. Being a shit mom is being…

Natalie
Really real. And actually necessary. Go ahead.

Rebecca
Who is that woman you’ve read, or you studied? Isn’t there some philosopher that talks about good enough?

Natalie
Yeah, that’s a man, actually. Donald Winnicott, he has this key notion called the ‘good enough mother,’ and I used it. I’m going to shameless plug here with my own very personal website, nataliejoydavey.com, if you would like to go read my most recent article all about the good enough teacher! But anyways, I take his concept —

Rebecca
Is that weird that it’s coming from a man, or no?

Natalie
No, he was a good guy. He was definitely moving the field forward. I mean, it was definitely at a time where his female compatriots got less play than him in terms of people’s names.

Rebecca
Ok, so he got some kudos for something a woman might now.

Natalie
Yeah. But anyways, his idea of the good enough mother really was about care and relationship developed between mother and child, parent and child — but specifically letting the child fail in a way that gives them the space to figure out how to survive and pick themselves up and then not hate you so much. For him, it goes down really intensely psychological roads. And that’s not the point really, but conceptually, the idea of ‘good enough’ is meaning to say, “I love you enough to let you go. And because I let you go, and give you this freedom, you come back to me.” So you can place that concept even in teaching. I trust my students to learn the way they want — they will then want to stay in relationship with me to keep getting better. Well, I really hope that there’s something about that in parenting that I can take on, because I do — I want to make it so that Frankie isn’t so afraid of needing me for everything that he can’t make his own decisions. So the good enough mother lets him make his decision. To hopefully give some tools. I mean, it’s about teaching critical thinking skills, really.

Rebecca
But also recognize that we aren’t going to be perfect. Is that part of that?

Natalie
Yeah, that’s totally a part of that. And then I think I’ve extended it out to sort of saying, what does it mean then for the kid to be able to really look at the parent honestly, and recognize that those failures are human? So developing sense of empathy. If I fail — and I fail all the time — my hope is that if I talk about it with Frankie, if I ask for forgiveness... If I snap at him because I’m tense, because it was a long day, but then I actually apologize and not just make an excuse for my snapping, and guide him towards seeing that my apology is real, then maybe the next time he has a shitty moment, he’ll apologize too. I’ve seen it, and I think that that must mean something’s working in there.

Rebecca
I have tried to take that on, to really be forthcoming with my apologies, as a practice. I worry sometimes that I’ve done it better with Violet. I was telling my therapist about this, and she was very excited about it. So I’ll be like, if I’m getting too loud, Violet will be like, “Whoa, mom, you’re getting a bit much right now.” Then I can say to her, “Oh, thank you for telling me. I’m sorry. I will now use this quieter voice. I will use my inside voice starting now.” My therapist just was just like, “That is great,” that she has the freedom to tell me, and that I can apologize, and that we can have this little exchange together. That’s very healthy. But then I think sometimes with Elsie — because I started mothering young with her — sometimes I worry that things are more cemented with her. I don’t think so fully, I think she had you as a role model, too, and I think that’s been really powerful for her. But sometimes I just think maybe I’ve gotten better, and so the kids that came first — I mean that you could argue that you came first, and experienced more pressures than I did, right? Did mom and dad learn?

Natalie
Maybe, but remember I told you, I blocked everything out.

Rebecca
Ok, if you blocked everything out.

Natalie
So I don’t know what to say to that. But I will say that I could reframe Elsie’s stuff there as: you again are going to be really hard on yourself about it, whereas I watch her interact with other humans, other adults, other people, right? Emphasize humans (because she’s also really good with cats), but with people, she’s one of the most generous people I see, and that’s thanks to your work.

Rebecca
I think she is outwardly beautiful, but sometimes I think, “What’s happening in her? What’s her inner life? And is it cared for? Or does she know? Is it getting enough tending?” She’s a garden!

Natalie
She is a garden, and I think you’ve watered that garden really beautifully. It’s obvious — it’s science — that there are going to be different things experienced in terms of birth order, right? That’s a whole thing. So yes, the first child is going to have different things. So many things. And maybe one of the reasons why she relates to me so well as an aunt is that I am also the eldest. So maybe there is something there, right? And so if she feels seen by different people, I think that partly goes back to the Winnicott thing. The good enough mother is willing not to be everything for the child.

Rebecca
Is that a thing, in that concept?

Natalie
Yeah, it’s built right into that notion of: if we’re going to let the kid fail, it’s because it can’t all come from you.

Rebecca
I mean yeah, we know that in our marriages or partnerships — that you can’t be everything. That I’ve come to.

Natalie
Yeah, so if you come to it there, can you give yourself the freedom to say that here? In that it doesn’t have to all come from you, then you’re not centering yourself in the relationship. You are focusing on the child. And then the child — I think her interior life is really well-tended, because she has so many loving people around her. I think she recognizes it, just from my own experience.

Rebecca
Although we won’t fully know till later, Nat.

Natalie
No. We won’t know until she does her own talking later, and then tells us all the mistakes we made.

Rebecca
On her own podcast. Yeah, exactly. By the way, a really good show is Mare of Easttown, with Kate Winslet. So good! And it really depicts this flawed middle-aged mother really well. She’s grappling with how her son has died by suicide, and she’s grappling with it while being a detective. So she’s got a serious career happening at the same time, but it’s just done so well, and it’s so poignant. So go watch it, Nat. If you’re ever going to watch something for yourself — which you never will, because you’ll just be watching Centaurworld. So I need to like, lock you up in my room. We need to watch it together.

Natalie
Which I really love, because you’re way better at helping me to care for myself than I am. You and Clifford are always trying to interrupt my —

Rebecca
Which is so hard for you because you’ll be like, “Oh, do we have to watch this? Do I have to do this adult thing?”

Natalie
Yeah, I don’t know.

Rebecca
The other thing I was talking about with my therapist — I thought this was just an interesting new weight to carry. I didn’t find this one as encouraging — just observation. We were talking about a fight I had with Simon. The kids were there, and we tried to not continue it. But my therapist wanted to just continue to point out that the adults have power in a family. No matter how old your children are, you still are going to be the adults to them.

Natalie
I can get behind that.

Rebecca
What do you say to that? Just that yes, it’s true?

Natalie
I think it’s really true. I jokingly stop around the school in my high heeled boots, because they actually are better for my foot. It’s not heels anymore that I wear, it’s these boots. Anyways, I tower over people, and I sort of own my height — I work with high schoolers, so it’s totally fair to tower because some of these young men are super tall. So sometimes it’s just about trying to meet them somewhere. But it doesn’t matter how tall they are, it doesn’t matter how tall I am. Truly, in the end, I just have the power. I have the power to give them grades, to take away grades, but it’s more than that. I have the power to make somebody feel so important with my words, but I also have the power to make somebody feel so small with a look. Recognizing that, I think it’s a lesson that teachers need to learn really early on, and no doubt the same with parents. The other day, for my birthday, Frankie wasn’t feeling good, right? Yet he was constantly watching me to try and keep giving me thumbs up. Like, “I’m good, mom.” It was so over the top, what he was trying to do, but he wanted to please me. So he so desperately wanted me to be happy. It was my birthday. This was important.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Natalie
To his own potential damage, right? I mean, he needed to go to bed! I recognize the power dynamic is there, and I probably then really quite adamantly try to direct aspects of my conversations with Clifford at times. If we’re going to have a moment, I’m very aware, again, that there’s only three of us in the house, that there’s no other person to distract. So then Frankie’s uber-conscious of everything. So I then end up playing out the conversation with him as almost having to be a bit of a potential teaching moment, too, for Frankie — for how to be in conflict with somebody for a moment, and get through it, because I’m just always aware of an audience. So that’s a power dynamic thing that I’m very aware of, because I want for him to learn how to argue safely.

Rebecca
And that’s what my therapist was saying, just there’s always an audience in that dynamic.

Natalie
Yeah, I’m really with your therapist on that one for sure.

Rebecca
I think I see it with Elsie sometimes more. I mean, Violet, she’s also like, “Are you good? Are you good?” She wants me to be good. But with Elsie, she’ll be in a bad mood and for a split second I’ll think we’re equals. And that she’s in a bad mood, I was in a bad mood a second ago, and “Please change your mood,” or whatever. But I realize if I’m getting too forceful, she’s starting to…

Natalie
That’s when she becomes a kid again.

Rebecca
Yeah, I see her crumpling a little bit.

Natalie
Yeah, I see that with Frankie sometimes.

Rebecca
Do you? It’s like, there’s no equals here.

Natalie
She just wants her mom.

Rebecca
Yeah, to be gentle. And that she’s not coming at it as two equals. It’s just a good reminder.

Natalie
Yeah, no. There’s never an equal in that. Well, and I’m glad you’re calling it a reminder to yourself, because I think if I jump in with my big sister reframe — I think that again, the shitty mom title, if used negatively, doesn’t help you in that. Whereas the recognition that it can go wrong — but that we can work within the moment where we’ve potentially dropped the ball, in the way that we have the argument with…

Rebecca
Yeah, if I’m getting too loud, you can step back.

Natalie
And even the apology, the humility piece. I think that in not being equal, you always have the power. I always have the power, therefore I have the power to be humble. So when I apologize to Frankie for trying to talk to him like an adult, or even a teenager (because I’m so used to spending my days talking to teenagers, I forget sometimes he’s only seven) — so when he’s not getting it, because he doesn’t even know the word, that I have to say sorry. It’s just a constant reminder that maybe I’m doing something right then, in that moment when I apologize. Maybe I just need to be shittier! So I can keep up these apologies.

Rebecca
I like that, Nat. Let’s just get shittier and shittier, and paint ourselves and brown paint, and maybe even clean the shit out of the toilet and smear it — is that too much?

Natalie
Well that was — again, you’re going to Spain.

Rebecca
It’s been done. Was that theater of — what’s that anyway? You wouldn’t know this, I don’t think, but the theater where you throw shit on the audience.

Natalie
Oh my gosh, that’s a thing?

Rebecca
Yeah, that’s a thing. I’ll put it in the show notes. Ok, I I had some other thoughts, but I feel like that might be enough. I mean, do you?

Natalie
Yeah! Well, I think you’ve helped me to think through them like my birthday moment where it really did feel like I had failed my kid, by making him try to make me feel better. And I really need to let that go.

Rebecca
I mean, your birthday was a hard one, because there’s so much happening.

Natalie
COVID sucks!

Rebecca
Yeah, we were wondering if…

Natalie
Frankie had it.

Rebecca
But then it felt like, we shouldn’t be here then. Just how we were all reacting and trying to make the other ok.

Natalie
There was a lot of caregiving.

Rebecca
What I was just thinking is that it’s so one thing to say, “Let’s just all be shitting.” It’s an entirely other thing to experience the shittiness and to keep going. You know what I mean? It’s one thing for us to talk about this, and then to go live that shitty moment of getting too loud — that’s my issue, not yours — waving my hands, or doing the things where I feel distracted, like I feel too distracted, I’m not being present. So all those things. But as you say, we’re getting to the apology part.

Natalie
Yeah, to the humility part. To balance the power dynamic.

Rebecca
But it doesn’t feel good to be humble all the time. That’s the thing, right?

Natalie
You know what, though — can it feel good? Because the little person then says back, “That’s ok mommy.” Because that’s what happens every time. I see that happen with your girls, and certainly I experience it with Frankie. “It’s ok mommy, I forgive you.” Those are the most beautiful words, because maybe that means he’ll be able to say that with other people in his life. And maybe you know, God willing, he’ll be able to say to himself.

Rebecca
I think it’s that part, right? Bringing that humility into our relationship with them, so that then they can bring that humility to themselves? I’m saying all that, because that is really what we want for them. Is to be gentle on them — I mean, obviously on others, but on themselves. I think that’s what’s extra hard, is for all of us to love ourselves.

Natalie
That’s that line, from Centaurworld. We are just all fragile souls. Oh my gosh, how can such a little silly show be so poetic.

Rebecca
And the song that goes with it is good.

Natalie
So wonderful. Everybody needs to go and watch that.

Rebecca
I don’t know what to make of this, but I’m just going to end with this. We’ve been watching the osprey, up at the farm. There’s a nest just down the road, and Simon learned that the parents leave first, and the kids follow later. Whenever. We don’t know, and Elsie has been really wrestling with that. She’s like, “I don’t understand. So the parents just go?” Maybe we can’t go to the animal kingdom. I just wanted to bring that to you Nat — the osprey, the parents just leave.

Natalie
Yeah, I don’t know what to say to that. Because I can’t reframe a bird. But if we’re to take a lesson from nature, which I think I certainly want to try, it’s got to be a lot of trust — that they’ve done everything that they can for that little bird, so that the bird can fly on its own. If the parent does go, then eventually the little bird’s gotta recognize that it’s free to go too. Oh my gosh, I’m gonna make myself cry. There’s something so beautiful, right?

Rebecca
And the parent osprey, just trusting that they did their part.

Natalie
Yeah. I mean, I say that for the teachers. I say that for… I mean, we’re doing what we can, and that’s got to be a lot. Not just enough, but a lot. So I think good enough.

Rebecca
Good enough to leave first. Oh my god, that’s so good Nat!

Natalie
Well, it was yours. You’re the one that came up with that metaphor. See, Bec, we’re a good team. I like this.

Rebecca
Ok, I love you Nat.

Natalie
I love you.

Rebecca
You’re a shit mom! And bravo.

Natalie
You are too! Well done.