Rebecca
Hey Nat.

Natalie
Hey Bec.

Rebecca
Stretching my arms to get ready for this conversation.

Natalie
Do you consider today as a serious conversation?

Rebecca
No — just get my podcast energy on, Nat.

Natalie
Ok, I’m into that.

Rebecca
How was the ceviche that I missed?

Natalie
Oh, it was really good, Becca.

Rebecca
Nat made ceviche, and I wasn’t there this weekend, because I wanted to try cross-country skiing.

Natalie
Yeah. So you basically chose snow over fish, and I’m hoping that that was a win for you. In fact, I think it was. I think you texted me that you got your dream, it happened?

Rebecca
Well, it was really fun. I was like, “Oh, I understand why people do sports.” That was my big revelation out there. I was like, “Moving my body through an outdoor activity feels really good.” It felt exciting. But I was really sad to miss your ceviche, because you said it was your best effort.

Natalie
Yeah, and I am a critical chef. I don’t always appreciate what it is that I come out with in the end. But this one man, I nailed it. And it was the snapper. I got it from my fishmonger on Bloor Street — they’re called Snappers. They know what they’re doing with that very specific fish.

Rebecca
Is that his star fish?

Natalie
Well, they must have called it that for some reason. I don’t know. And it’s not always there. So that’s why I’ve had to do ceviche in the past with cod loin, and as good as it is — it still tastes fresh and good, obviously — but you change it up to snapper? Oh my gosh. It’s like a whole different world of ceviche. It was perfect.

Rebecca
What? That’s already my favorite thing.

Natalie
The three of us ate in silence. Frankie doesn’t eat ceviche. He had an ordered-in hummus wrap from Lebanon Express. He was as happy as he could be. He actually said to me earlier into the week, “Mommy, my teacher was talking to me about the difference between want and need. And so I need broccoli. That is good for me, just like I need water. But I want a chicken hummus wrap this weekend.” And I said, “If you can name that with such clarity, then you will have that, and it will be delicious.” He was so happy. He was munching away silently. Clifford and I barely made eye contact for the whole meal because we were just shoveling in that raw fish. It was so good. So yeah, you missed it. We missed you.

Rebecca
When we eat it next, can I bring my own jalapeno?

Natalie
I know you like it a little spicier than the others. You don’t need to bring it, I’ll just make sure that I save the seeds that I sometimes pull out to keep.

Rebecca
Yeah, just give me all the seeds.

Natalie
Yeah, I’ll give you all the seeds. I want to make sure that it stays really spicy for you.

Rebecca
Because I want to shovel in the fish and then feel a burn in my mouth.

Natalie
Do you think that people would want this as a recipe? Well, anyways, you know what, people? You can give us some feedback.

Rebecca
I think it would be, I just think for that recipe we need to go hard on the actual directions. How you cut it, you know?

Natalie
Yeah, I have to be a bit more specific. I can’t be so loosey goosey.

Rebecca
Because we’re talking about raw fish.

Natalie
And yeah, potential sickness.

Rebecca
And I don’t know that it would be intuitive at all, what to do. It wouldn’t be for me, I feel daunted by the prospect of making ceviche. I don’t think I would. I think we would need to say: ceviche made easy.

Natalie
Which I could definitely do. It’s just a ton of chopping, is really what it is. It’s chopping and getting your fish stewing in that lime juice like ASAP.

Rebecca
I think we should do it. We should do it. Because it’s so delicious. Why would we keep that joy from people?

Natalie
Well, and speaking of ‘the joy from people,’ I don’t want to keep Darlene (our cousin’s) recipe from folks because we have pictures coming, right? I actually have it slated, the one that we had posted on our last Sister On! newsletter was a lovely recipe coming in from our cousin in the States, Darlene, who’s a wonderful chef as well. But I had to find a way to gluten-free it for myself.

Rebecca
It was a phyllo pastry broccoli sausage pie. Which I think sounds delicious.

Natalie
Yeah. I think it’s gonna be amazing. So my plan this week — because you’re gonna make it this week, right?

Rebecca
I am, yeah.

Natalie
And you’re gonna take some pictures of Darlene’s recipe.

Rebecca
I’m going to do it straight, Nat.

Natalie
Oh yeah, do the whole deal. And I’m going to do a gluten-free version — I’m going to make the crust more like a pie, like how Si would make a pie.

Rebecca
With gluten-free crust.

Natalie
With gluten-free crust that I’m gonna make out of Bob’s Red Mill gluten-free flour. I’m going to experiment. So we’ll take pictures for folks, and then they can see how you can go directions full-on, or you can be a bit… experimental, a la Natalie.

Rebecca
This is how you can live your life.

Natalie
Just keep trying new things.

Rebecca
That’s right. And today, we wanted to talk about knowing ourselves a little bit — which I think is a really nice segue because there’s different ways to live.

Natalie
Different ways to see.

Rebecca
Although I feel like when I suggested this topic, you gave me a very blank look. What was going on there Nat? You just went like, “Mmm…”

Natalie
Well you know what, it’s just because you did present it to — first of all, I was standing in your hallway, I had earphones in, and then I had my earmuffs over that. I wasn’t fully with you, because I was in my head, quite literally.

Rebecca
Were you listening to music the whole time I was talking to you? Because that’s rude, Nat!

Natalie
No, I didn’t have music on. I had paused whatever food-based podcast I was listening to. I think it was called Yelling About Pâté — I didn’t actually love them, I found them just a little bit too ‘L.A. dude’ for me, but I wanted to hear how somebody else would talk about food. But anyways, I paused, I came in, you mentioned this idea. But you didn’t present it the way you just presented it now. You wanted to talk about whether we still have blinders. The word blinders, I don’t know if I want to go as far as saying it’s triggering, or if it’s — I just butt up against that word. You know I am very much about language, and so that specific word, for me, doesn’t resonate. So then I’m like, “Ok, I gotta meet Rebecca where she’s at, I gotta find a way.” So probably all that was happening in my head underneath my earmuffs — and you’re trying to have a really serious conversation with me and I’m standing there in those fuzzy earmuffs. All of it was just…

Rebecca
I like to have serious conversations, Natalie, no matter what you’re wearing. It’s just what I do.

Natalie
In the rest of my life, Clifford can’t have a serious conversation with me when I wear those earmuffs by the way — just to say. If I want to get through something with definitive humor, I throw them on, because it’s like a tool. That’s called a life hack!

Rebecca
That’s brilliant, actually. I need one of those life hacks just for changing up the vibe — although I just tunneled, bulldozed right through those earmuffs to make my point? I really did, didn’t I? I’m sorry. Which would suggest that I have some blinders. So my question is, “Do we still have blinders at 40?” My answer is, I think I do. But fine, you don’t like the word.

Natalie
Yeah. I’ll speak to that in a second. But did you want to say anything more about your own experience of coming to that word?

Rebecca
I don’t know why I have that word in my head. I don’t know if it’s a word mom would use. Just things that we don’t see about ourselves. I guess I don’t mind the word. I want to know what our listeners would think about that word, is it like an offensive word? It’s not offensive, right?

Rebecca
No, I don’t think it’s about that. But I mean, I would say that at 43 — I definitely had blinders on, or down — or whatever way you’d frame that visual metaphor.

Rebecca
Across.

Natalie
Horizontal. I would have had them in my 20s. I don’t think I knew myself well enough then to really consciously think through what I might have been doing — until after the fact. I think I was perhaps on some sort of autopilot, because I didn’t necessarily even have the language to describe why I might have been reacting to various situations. I would say that I definitely had blinders on, across, up, whatever. Down! Blinders down.

Rebecca
Ok, when I say ‘blinders,’ I immediately think of windshield wipers, and you’re thinking of blinds.

Natalie
Yeah, I’m fully thinking blinds, like I’m thinking vertical blinds.

Rebecca
Why do I think of windshield wipers?!

Natalie
Oh, I have no idea. You know what? We’re going to unpack that one on the next one. But let me just get through my thought here. I think that yes, I had blinders down and covering my eyes to my own maybe pure motivations in all of my responses to life. Why did I date who I dated? But yet, why did I break up with who I broke up with? Why did I respond to friends in certain ways? There could have just been lots of things that I was doing automatically, because I like to please people. To truly understand the hardcore interiority of my ‘why,’ I don’t know if I could have said that then. But now, after that many years, and all of my various emotional adventures and dare I say traumas, I could say that I definitely have more language to describe all that. So those don’t feel like blinders anymore. I know Simon said that Carl Jung would say that we have shadow sides. I think I could get behind that language for myself — the idea of: a shadow’s behind you, that you know is there, and you can recognize it, but it’s still a part of you. Something like that.

Rebecca
Ok, and I looked up shadow side, and Wikipedia says, “In analytical psychology, the shadow, also known as id, shadow aspect, or shadow archetype, is either an unconscious aspect of the personality that the conscious ego does not identify in itself, or the entirety of the unconscious — that is, everything of which a person is not fully conscious. In short, the shadow is the unknown side.” You’re saying you know it, though.

Natalie
I think I can recognize, certainly, parts of that in myself. But you’re saying that you think blinders are windshield wipers…

Rebecca
Why do I think that? That’s so weird! You know how windshield wipers, they blind you briefly?

Natalie
Yeah ok, I could see that.

Rebecca
That’s what’s happening. I don’t know what to do with that. It’s just really weird that that’s where my mind goes, as opposed to the obvious — blinds which come down, which is really what we probably mean when we say ‘you have blinders on.’

Natalie
I think so. If we’re gonna play with your picture here, I think that you could say the rain is coming down hard, which means something big is happening, and you’re trying to move the rain out of the way so that you can move forward. It’s true, there are very microscopic moments in that kind of rain where the wiper is doing the work to move you through — but yet, it also does momentarily stop you from seeing the whole picture, right? So perhaps there is something in you that is doing that. Are there certain responses… you talked about somebody texting you this week, a question, and then you gave a really immediate answer, and now you’re waiting for the follow-up question or response. You could, without thinking, prompt again, right? Because you’re waiting for that thing. The windshield wiper moment for you could be to like, keep texting until you get the answer, because you know how to get the answer. But I don’t think you’d do that, actually. I could be completely wrong, but I think you might prompt for a more immediate response when you were younger. Now I think there’s a recognition of, like…

Rebecca
I mean maybe, although I feel like my evolution is not that tidy. I think sometimes my blinders, my windshield wipers, are down and up — you know, the windshield wipers is kind of hard because they move in both directions. I think sometimes my blinders are down, even at 41.

Natalie
Well, that’s fair. That’s why I think I really resonate with the shadow side piece, because I know how to be a caregiver. I’ve talked about that before, that’s something I’m good at. It’s why a lot of people get into teaching. But then I also experienced some real lack, in terms of caring for myself, but then I get grumpy about it, right? Not necessarily grumpy in an externalized way, where I get grumpy with people or at people, but I might feel a little bit bummed, or even hard done by, if I’m not kind of receiving any of that care, and then I’ll just go really internal. So that could end up looking like me just hiding in my classroom, because no one’s gonna come check on me anyways — that kind of a feeling. But that’s not true — people do. I think I could go to the shadow side without really looking at the bigger picture, which is that actually there are people who are going to respond. I don’t need to do it that way, I can go upstairs — which is what I’ve been trying to do. So in my best self, in my best moment — I’m now jumping on board with your windshield wiper thing, because I’m going back and forth. I could go upstairs and find myself in the office with my dearest friend and just have a real conversation. I can take care of myself that way, which I’m doing more of.

Rebecca
But I hear you, in that ‘blinders’ as a word does feel like it’s a negative word that says, “I am bad,” or “I don’t see clearly,” as opposed to ‘shadow side’ — “I can open up to this.” “There are different aspects of myself.” Does that resonate more with you?

Natalie
Yeah, I think that really does.

Rebecca
I think one of my shadow sides (I’m just gonna go with that word for a second) is — could you guess what I think one of my shadow sides is?

Natalie
I’m not even gonna try. Go for it, you tell me.

Rebecca
I think it’s my drivenness. The positive side is that I get stuff done, and that I’m motivated. But the shadow of it is that I sometimes live in this frenzied state of doing and achieving. I think that my kids would see that. It’s almost like a workaholism or something. There, I’ve said it, and I feel… I don’t know. Thoughts. I think I’m also a really good chameleon. I was working with a writer last week, and she was acknowledging that she’s a chameleon in life. That was what she was saying about herself, that she can morph into different people, for people. I was like, “Am I like that, too?” Ok, so there’s a lot here, Nat.

Natalie
Yeah, and I have to determine, even as I respond to it — because I don’t want to jump to trying to reframe something — I don’t necessarily see that chameleon, like taking on that mantle, as a struggle. Why is that a struggle? Because I kind of like the idea of being able to blend in, and whatever the surrounding’s doing to me.

Rebecca
I don’t see that way, which is really interesting. I see you not as a chameleon, and that’s something I admire. I guess I see myself, sometimes, this chameleon aspect. I feel like it might be a shadow side. Because is it not fully being myself, like I’m adapting?

Natalie
Yep, that’s what I’m saying. I agree with you. That’s not me. Even when I try to, like I try to go into a building and just be quiet and then just all of a sudden I’m talking and saying leadery-type things. And I’m like, “Dammit, I’m a fucking leader again.” This is what it ends up being.

Rebecca
There have been moments (I wish I had an example) where I’m trying to bring you over to my team, where we’re just going to be really congenial with whoever we’re with. I’m just like, “Nat, sit down beside me, hold my hand, and just be really nice, ok? And just smile.”

Natalie
Yeah, that’s really hard for me — like, I end up having an opinion, and then I share my opinion…

Rebecca
And then you might leave. I also associate that with you: you just leave. You’ll just be fed up and leave. Which is really funny, because you always get mad at me for being the one — remember we had our friend who would just go into the corner at parties and play the guitar, and you wouldn’t like that? You’d be like, “She’s gone.” And you say that about me. I’ll just be gone. But you do it too, Nat. You have your own disappearing act. It’s just in different moments.

Natalie
You don’t go. You really, totally just invest in one person. And I’m like, “Rebecca, there’s a whole party. We all need to share the load in terms of our social interactions.” But you’re like, “No, I’m invested in this one person.” We even joked about this — the idea of our Christmas party (even though there was never any because it was COVID). What you just said about the leaving, I just had this — my friend and I had taken our kids for a playdate at the park — this was like back at the early winter. This other person came up, she really made herself vulnerable and decided to talk — but then talked a lot. And so at a certain point, I’d learned what I needed to learn, and so I walked away. My friends said to me later, in her mind she went, “There goes Nat.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s actually a full thing.” So you know what, I have had a full-blown blinder up to that very specific observation of me, because I have not seen that to be necessarily a truth — as I’m a walker awayer. I don’t think that’s actually what’s happening.

Rebecca
Oh, until your friend said that?

Natalie
Until you and my friend said this. So to me, if two people are saying it, then I don’t think that it’s necessarily that I’m walking away — just to explain it — I’ve gathered my info. I’ve invested what I’ve invested. And now I’m going to move on to the next person who needs the investment.

Rebecca
Your limits are just very defined to yourself. And I think those are just not as clear for me.

Natalie
We are digging into some serious shadows here, this is good. We’re bringing them forward, the sun is changing direction, and our shadow is becoming much more clearly presented right in front of us. This is interesting. I mean, it’s good for me to know. I think as you say, my boundaries are pretty clear. I think in the moment, I sort of feel like, “Ok, you’ve eaten up enough of my energy” — whoever this person is at that point. And so, I’m going to need to like, exit and refuel.

Rebecca
Can one help one identify their shadow side? Or is that sort of like pointing fingers? Should one have to identify it for oneself? Because I was going to help you identify a shadow side.

Natalie
You have another one for me? Didn’t you just name a whole thing, like, I walk away?

Rebecca
Yeah, but I was gonna expound on it and suggest what, I guess, is the point. Because ultimately, when you’re talking about that, I see it as mostly positive. You are specifying boundaries for yourself, which is good. I feel like in our world, people recognize and applaud people for their boundary-making.

Natalie
Sort of. Well, they say they do. But I think it rubs everybody slightly the wrong way when it actually happens.

Rebecca
I was gonna say, something you might miss out on is the potential for that conversation to evolve, if you stuck it out. Which is my thing, where I just: Stick. It. Out. This is going to turn into something, and that’s the thing, everything does turn into something — because we’re humans. We are living cells, so they’re going to evolve, right? That’s what I find so hard about this, because I’m like, “There is going to be an interesting bit, if I stick around.”

Natalie
For sure. Yeah. I would say that I agree with you. One of the ways that I have been trying to embrace that shadowy part of me where I’m like, “These people are going to energy vampire all of my good (that I know I’m going to have to give to my students, I’m going to have no option but to give in that space, because it’s the right thing to do, and I’m also being paid to do it, and all those kinds of things).” But I would say that what I said earlier, about actually exiting my classroom and going upstairs into the world of adults, I do that more definitively these days, because I feel like I should at least exit my room. I’m trying to counter that sort of interior grumpiness at feeling like all the takers are just taking, and actually give — to try and receive, to try and actually go up and receive from somebody unexpected, and it happens every day. Every day that I try that, I do receive some gift from someone who I didn’t know would be that gift. Because — the living cells thing, everybody’s got something to offer. It’s good, you’re right. It’s good that I recognize it. It’s good that you point it out carefully, lovingly. And it’s good that I then do it. Because it’s one thing to talk about it, it’s another thing to do it.

Rebecca
Right. But can you say something about my chameleonness?

Natalie
Well, I feel like I did. I think in some ways that it’s a gift, I’m saying that that’s not easy for me. So if it’s something that you are able to do, can you embrace it as a part of you that is really beautiful? They make picture books about chameleons, my gosh Rebecca! You’re like a character in a book, because like your ability to be in that space and absorb — could be negative if it’s absorbing all sorts of bad energy, but it could be positive, because you’re able to absorb that little bit of info that you would never have had if you weren’t there to receive it. That nugget that you are really good at gleaning from the world around you.

Rebecca
But I think for some reason it does have a toll. It’s kind of about balance, I guess. You’re looking for balance, and I’m looking for balance — what is the limit on what I can absorb from other people? I think your limit — “I know I’m topped up here, I must walk away because I’m topped up.” I think it takes longer for me to get topped up, but then I think sometimes I miss it.

Natalie
So I guess I would say to you, are you actually willing to do what I try and do these days?

Rebecca
Which is to walk away sometimes.

Natalie
Well, no — I automatically do. That I do pretty well. I’m saying that I’m having to really make the conscious effort to exit myself, and come out of the room, and come and find new things and new people, but yours is the opposite. Are you willing to actually experiment with walking away earlier, and seeing what that does for you? That would be something to practice. You’re the flip of what I’m suggesting of my own needs. That’s what I encourage you to try.

Rebecca
That does feel so exciting to me, because even on our last episode when we were interviewing Johnny Crowder…

Natalie
Which was a lot of fun.

Rebecca
It was fun. I love that story about him discovering that as an adult, you can walk away. Because I hear it and I go, “Of course you can walk away as an adult,” but I think I’m very unpracticed in that.

Natalie
That’s a really good word to use, because it’s unpracticed. So you’re naming that you haven’t done it much, but now you have to, perhaps, actually do it. It’s sort of saying, “Ok, today I’m gonna…”

Rebecca
Today, I’m gonna walk away. From a life-sucking conversation. First I’d have to recognize it as life-sucking.

Natalie
But I think that you do, I think you are very aware of it because you’re a hopeful person. I think I’m a bit more of a realist. I think that you’re walking around with a whole lot of hope (which is so beautiful), that you walk into those moments that you know have great potential to be life-sucking, but you still want to give someone the chance to show that positive moment in themselves to you. I guess I would say that’s lovely, and I want to hug that part of you right now. But I also want to say — actually just practicing, “There’s a good chance that they’re not going to show that to me today, and my energy levels require a bit more caffeine. So I’m going to try this again tomorrow, when I have more to handle this with.” So that does become about looking at your own energy level at that point. It is true Bec — there are days when I just don’t have it, and I’ll stay in my room.

Rebecca
I do applaud you, your blinders don’t seem too deep, Nat. Now I’m calling them deep.

Natalie
You know, I do gently encourage my students when they mix their metaphors, to consider where their metaphor started. But I think it’s fair for this one to go deep, or long, or whatever, because we’ve had no definitive metaphor.

Rebecca
It’s actually gonna be very confusing for people, so I’m really sorry. One funny thing is that I call myself a realist. Did you know, Nat? I fully think I’m a realist, which makes you like, an uber-realist.

Natalie
Or just a negative Nancy, I don’t know. No, I’m not though. I don’t think that you are.

Rebecca
You don’t see me as a realist?

Natalie
If you’re a realist, then you’re a realist at the top part of a cup. I’m halfway down. So you know what, there could be gradations of realism. That’s fair.

Rebecca
It’s graded. Ok, I also wanted to say I’d listened to this episode of Hidden Brain — which I should know his name. I’ll write the real name in the show notes because it’s rude to keep quoting from him not knowing his name fully. He had this episode where he was talking about how we want to be seen in relationships — I guess being truly seen is the real marker of if a relationship will last. But because sometimes we don’t know ourselves, we don’t know how to allow ourselves to be seen, and it negatively affects relationships. So I find that interesting, because we can think we know ourselves, which is what Simon would probably say about us. When he listens to this episode, he’s gonna be like, “Oh, they think they know themselves!”

Natalie
Yeah, yeah, Mr. Science PhD.

Rebecca
Believer in Jung. But how sometimes we don’t know ourselves, and that’s damaging to relationships. I just found that really interesting, this notion of being truly seen and how we can think we are showing ourselves.

Natalie
I love feeling seen, but I definitely don’t know. I love it.

Rebecca
I love it, too.

Natalie
But you know what, when someone actually gets me and my motivations for why I do what I do — whether it’s a leader, like a school leader, or whether it’s a student. I use this definition with my students all the time for metacognition. To understand why we do what we do, it’s so empowering, to know thyself, right? I really get that, and so for someone to then recognize the true self in me feels amazing. I guess my only caveat to this (and I don’t know where Hidden Brain dude would go with this one) — I also recognize, and maybe this is because over the last 25 years, certain aspects of me have shifted in terms of my own self-awareness is that I want to stay flexible. That is something that’s becoming more and more important to me. This whole thing of knowing myself — I know myself right now, or at least I’m trying to know myself right now.

Rebecca
And you want to be seen.

Natalie
And I want to be seen for who I am, and my motivations. I’m always trying to say, “Do you understand why I did that?” If I’m saying that to Frankie, or to Clifford, you know. I also think it’s really important to me to not become cemented in place, because I want to keep growing. Don’t you?

Rebecca
Yeah, I just wrote about this on my newsletter, Observables. I was reading this woman’s discussion about what she was calling our multiplicities, and I really loved that. Cause I agree. I guess that’s the danger of being seen? Are you seeing me for who I was, as opposed to who I’ve evolved to — I guess, on Hidden Brain, that’s what he would talk about. That’s what being really seen is: when someone sees you for who you are right now. That’s how I heard it. That’s where it gets dangerous for people, because you don’t see me for me now. Maybe that was who I was. But this is who I am now, these are my needs and wants and passions now. Do you see me now?

Natalie
As I am able to name them. Clifford, because he’s eight years older than me, he’s talked about being older and recognizing his own fight to remain flexible — not just in his body, like he is the most flexible yoga dude out there, because he wants to be able to one day play with his grandkids on the floor, there’s an awareness that like to get down on the floor and play Lego requires flexibility. But then there’s also a flexibility of mind that he’s very conscious about, and it’s hard to exercise it. It’s one of the reasons why I do have to leave my classroom. I have to leave my classroom and go upstairs and talk to adults as a form of exercise. Because otherwise I could become very cemented, and I think it happens to a lot of educators — where they become their truest self, perhaps, with their students in that one room. But is it really a true self if it’s just you in your performative state of standing in front of the room and hearing yourself back? So I don’t know if that counts. It’s something hard to exercise.

So I admire you, you’re continually trying to work with other writers, other artists, you’re not this solo artist who stays in her own little writer’s nest and does her own thing. You’re constantly working with other people, which keeps you in a constant state of stretch. I think that is something that I really admire — your constant movement towards knowing yourself. Knowing yourself through your interactions with other people, which can be hard work, right? You’d be the first to say that. I guess where I’m going with this, though, is I think that the idea of being seen in the moment — like, I want to be seen for who I am now — that could be very quickly shifted to using a word like ‘authentic’. “Well, I want to be seen for my authentic self.” I remember a master’s advisor years and years ago scoffing at my attempt to even use that word, because he thought authenticity as a term was useless. He was like, “What does that even mean?” And maybe he was on to something, maybe like the notion of an authentic self is wrong. Does the word ‘preclude’ work here? It kind of takes away from the option to be flexible.

Rebecca
Right, and which authentic self are you talking about? Are you talking about the caring mother, are you talking about…

Natalie
Yes, those multiplicities. 100%. I don’t know if I’ve just reframed shadow side into itself. Who was the author that you were just talking about with the multiplicities?

Rebecca
I’m gonna put that in the show notes. It was an advice column on Substack.

Natalie
Well, I love that, I think that that’s great. If we’re trying to bring the shadow forward, so that we’re really looking at it all the time, so that it’s not something that we run away from — if the shadow’s behind us, we can avoid looking at it, right? But if we bring it forward, if we change the direction of the sun, where we stand — so that we can see it — then we can encounter it more, but with the recognition that these multiplicities are at work, and they’re all parts of our flexible self. I think you and I are not just like sisters, but best friends, because of who we are now. I think that we obviously built each other over a lifetime of sisterhood, but through some spaces where we weren’t necessarily knowing truly who we were. We’re still together, you know — blood ties us in that way. Truly wanting to reach out and talk to you for this weekly podcast is because you’re going to meet me where I’m at, you’re going to see these parts of me that I used to be, but you also see the multiplicities in who I am now and continue to evolve to become — and that excites you about me. So is that what it means to be seen — to be watching somebody grow and to be excited for them? Not feeling bummed out about how they’ve changed? There’s something in that. I need to probably sit with that — feelings of those around me, that it’s a beautiful thing to watch people grow and change.

Rebecca
Well, with you, I don’t feel scared that you’re going to evolve and change away from me — which is also a real thing, and legitimate. Is that the security of family versus friends? Friends, that as we change, we can grow apart. Allowing that to happen is scary. So maybe cemented is control, and flexibility means we can’t predict this life.

Natalie
Yeah. That’s so true. I remember (and I’ve shared this before on here) that Clifford has encouraged me to put an arm around the Natalie of my past, and, you know, to be a bit more tender with my memories of her. Part of this is also then to recognize the fear and the kind of trepidation that comes with…

Rebecca
With our multiplicities?

Natalie
Yeah.

Rebecca
It’s interesting, yeah. I’ve done that with Violet, when she’s had really big moments (I think I’ve even mentioned it here) where I’m like, “You know that little monster friend inside you that’s screaming so loud?” — maybe ‘monster’ is not right. Like, “Your little friend. Let’s just hold her hand. Just bring that part of yourself in, and let’s all sit together, and then maybe she won’t need to scream so loud.”

Natalie
Because maybe the idea of feeling cared for will defuse the scream into just sort of more of… well, words. It’ll help you to use your words, that kind of language, to really name your need. Which is what it goes back to, right? If I can name the need I have for the self that I am today. If I can look at that self.

Rebecca
I just have to say that, it’s really good. “Name the need I have for the self I am today.”

Natalie
That, I think, would be the big takeaway. Is that what we’ve reframed? We’ve reframed the shadow side to be able to do that. That’s our big win. If we can somehow really look at ourselves clearly, and then be able to with words (or pictures, I mean like in that kids book that I’ve been writing called Wonder’s Words, where I basically have a young character who can create spells with pictures because words don’t cooperate for her). I think that there’s something of a wonder in lots of us, where words are hard to grab hold of, because language can feel so amorphous at times. So what are the other ways that we can find, harness, and communicate still that need?

Rebecca
Ok, I have two quotes for us as we go. Because I was reading it on The Marginalian this morning (which used to be Brain Pickings, she changed her name).

Natalie
She was morphing.

Rebecca
She was morphing. You know what, this is really interesting, because I feel mad that she decided to change because I’m like, “Marginalian is so much harder to say. I don’t understand why you morphed.” But that’s an interesting response to change, right? I’m so cemented. Here’s e.e. cummings: “The Artist is no other than he who unlearns what he has learned, in order to know himself,” — let’s just say it with, “The artist is she,” or, “The artist is they.” “The Artist is no other than they who unlearns what they have learned, in order to know themselves.”

Natalie
Yeah, I like that. And the idea of artist there, yeah.

Rebecca
And that the artists know themselves better.

Natalie
Or, again, that the artist could be anybody. If one actually sees one’s life as art — there is something in that, right? If I really value how I live my life, then I can see art in my own living. So there’s that too.

Rebecca
Yeah. And then this last one, this is James Baldwin here: “The poets (by which I mean all artists) are finally the only people who know the truth about us. Soldiers don’t. Statesmen don’t. Priests don’t. Union leaders don’t. Only poets.”

Natalie
Yeah, so Baldwin’s not being as flexible as I was there. He’s like, “Screw you Natalie. I’m being very specific here.”

Rebecca
So basically, Nat, you need me.

Natalie
I really do.

Rebecca
Because I know better.

Natalie
I don’t know where teachers fit in with all that, where educators fit in — because I’m not a soldier, necessarily. I’m not a statesperson. Not a priest, and a union leader? I’m not there. So maybe the teachers fit in with the poets. I’ll go with that one.

Rebecca
Part two is to unpack those quotations.

Natalie
I love those, Rebecca, and I love that you tried to have this conversation with the earmuffs on, and that you’ve continued with it sans earmuffs, and we’ve really nailed a few things down here.

Rebecca
Or we certainly tried.

Natalie
Yeah. I love you.

Rebecca
I love you too. I’m gonna go take my zit dot off.

Natalie
Ok, I’m gonna go.

Rebecca
Has it been ok watching me this whole time with my zit dot on? Has it been weird?

Natalie
I just took it in as part of the whole picture, it was great.

Rebecca
Ok, one day we’re gonna move these over to YouTube. I’m gonna make you do that, and then it’s like a whole other level of exposure.

Natalie
Gosh, then I gotta start wearing lipstick.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Natalie
Ok, well for now. I’ll talk to you later. I love you.

Rebecca
Okay, love you. Bye.

Natalie
Bye.