Rebecca
The break gave us time to step back, reflect, and look ahead to new ideas. This year, we will be experimenting with some big ideas in need of reframing, starting with talking about grief after the loss of a parent, and talking to kids about sex. We’ll be returning to our Women in Transition spotlights, and we have a Missed Moments series in the works. What does that mean Nat, missed moments?

Natalie
Well, have you ever had a moment that you thought was going one way and then it turned into something totally different? Or a relationship that could have been, had you continued that one conversation in the coffee shop before your dentist appointment. We want you to send us voice notes like that, or something written if you’d rather us read it for you, if you’re interested in telling us one of those stories.

Rebecca
We are also excited to start doing live events where we connect with listeners in person. There will be coffee, wine, treats, and lots of reframing.

Natalie
And now, this week, we are joined by Juno Rinaldi and Jenny Young, who have a new web series out called My Special Guest. You might know them from other roles: Juno played Frankie for five years on the Emmy-nominated Netflix series Workin’ Moms, and Jenny had a long time role on CBC’s radio drama Afghanada, and more recently on Amazon Prime’s The Lake. Now they want you to experience them together in something new that they’ve written. We love women taking risks, so we are here for it.

Rebecca
Together, we talk about making big transitions in our 40s, leaving behind jobs that were working, and experimenting with opportunities that sit way outside the box. Listen for Jenny’s description of her shoe shine business. We discuss the perils of being a Canadian actor, the joy of working with our best friends, the futility of comparison, and what it means to connect with friends beyond kids or work — essentially friendship for friendship’s sake. We hope you enjoy this conversation with actors and writers Juno Ridaldi and Jenny Young…

Natalie
As we reframe the big leap.

Rebecca
Welcome, everyone. We were just saying, Juno, before you came in, that we’ve never had four boxes before. We’ve never interviewed duos.

Natalie
It’s a treat.

Rebecca
So, Juno, just getting right in there. Talk to us about your transition from mainstream TV, which I was kind of thinking is the right metaphor, like leaving the mothership that is CBC, and going out on your own. Is it like growing up? What’s it like? Why did you do it? Why take that kind of risk?

Juno
It’s a question I get asked a lot, and it’s something of course that I wrestled with for a while, and wrestled with afterwards. But I think it comes back to that I have always been a creator. I’ve always been, in the loosest terms, an artist, and spent my younger years creating things and then into theatre school where I met Jenny. Had a, you know, little theatre company with some friends of mine. Did a whole bunch of weird cabarets and all sorts of weird stuff. But I’ve always had this drive to create and explore my own sort of creativity. And so I did five seasons of Workin’ Moms and changed my life. It was amazing. Frankie is my whole heart, and that experience set me on the path to where I am now, where I feel like I want to leave the mothership a little bit and jump and see if I can do it on my own — and see what are the stories I want to tell, what’s the voice that I want to put out into, you know, the Canadian landscape right now. And it’s been terrifying, but also very exciting.

And in my nature, I sort of describe myself as like a leaper. Like, if there’s something hard, or I want to do it, or if it’s a tough conversation to have, I’m going to do it. I jump in and I do it. I don’t wait. I get really stressed if I wait — which is good and bad. It’s impulsive. I’m kind of impulsive sometimes. But also there’s this thing like, “Why not? Why not try?” You know? And that was sort of the impetus to do it. There’s lots of things that have come from that. There’s been a lot of sort of discoveries for myself, and a lot of projects, and more flexibility with what I can do and where I’d like to go next.

Rebecca
And you have some interesting projects. I was reading in your bio — like that book you’re working on. That sounds super interesting. Can you talk about that — or not yet?

Juno
No, no. Yeah — it’s a book that I optioned by a BC writer called The Heaviness of Things That Float. And I actually optioned it while I was still working on Workin’ Moms, because I knew that it would end one day. I didn’t know what that would look like — you know, how many seasons we would get, how many seasons in. Nobody really knows that. I wanted to set myself, my future self, up for something. I read this book when I went home. I’m from BC, I’m from Vancouver Island area, and I went home and my mom gave me this book, and I read it, and I fell in love with it. And I came home, back to Hamilton here, and I direct messaged the author Jennifer Manuel on Twitter, and just jumped in and said, “Does anybody own the option to this book?” And we started that conversation. She’s an amazing writer. Yeah.

Rebecca
And an indigenous writer.

Juno
She’s not an indigenous writer.

Rebecca
Oh, she’s not? Oh, ok.

Juno
No, she’s a white writer. The story with that is I got the option to her book, and my husband Mike and I wrote the first sort of draft of, like, the pitch. We went out to BC, pitched it to a few networks, and they both looked at us like, “So where’s the indigenous representation on this project?” And we both went, “Mm-hmm, yup, you’re absolutely right.” This was years ago — maybe, like, four or five years ago. Came home, we thought, “That was… ugh,” — you know, stepped into a space we didn’t belong, and we were shown that, and we’re like, “Ok, yup, 100%.” So we put it to bed, and just left it. I let the option lapse, everything. And then a friend of mine who directed my short film said, “Have you talked to this woman, Eva Thomas? I think you guys would really hit it off.” And I said, “Nah, I don’t want to step into that space. I feel like it’s not my place.” And I just kept sort of pushing it off. Yet she said, “No, I really think you should talk to her.” So we did end up having a conversation, and Eva and I, this indigenous creator, have been working together ever since.

Rebecca
Oh, cool. Actually, I just learned about her.

Juno
She’s blowing up, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, I can’t say enough about her. So we have this really special partnership that we’ve created together over these couple of years. And we just recently met in Banff when we went to do the Banff media gauntlet thing out there. We met in person for the first time. So that project is still moving along, and it’s exciting, and it’s really awesome to be so invested in something, but also trust that it’s on its own schedule, it’s on its own time. And just being witness to how it’s moving and not gripping to it, just letting it be. I just love it. I think the project’s a beautiful, beautiful piece. I really can’t wait to do it. But it’s on its own journey and we’re just supporting it.

Rebecca
I mean Juno, that story of leaving CBC is so flashy. But Jenny, what has sort of the transitions of your own career been like? Just tell us a bit about that, too.

Jenny
For me, my bigger transition would be that I’ve been navigating, over the last six years or so, transitioning out of live theatre being my mainstay and going into on-camera work. And that’s been a huge transition which has been really rewarding, but scary, too, because that’s where I’ve made my living, that’s where I’ve made my name. I know how that world works. I love theatre so much. I love being in it. I love the community. I love being on stage so, so much. But I’d always wanted to do film and TV, and I never really gave myself enough time. Like, I would essentially call my agent in between contracts. “Oh, I have a month. I’m finished at the Shaw Festival, and I have a month before I start this other gig at the Tarragon or whatever.” And it was never enough to give traction to the casting directors and stuff to sort of discover who I was.

So I came to a point after my second kid was born. Theatre takes such a huge amount of time, and for very little monetary reward — or not little, but quite a bit less than film and TV. So it became easier to start saying no to things. And then I realized that I had these pockets open that were getting bigger. I was being more selective for the first time in my whole entire life as an actor with theatre, really, basically, if I just love it so much, unless the project was a real stinker. But there’s usually another reason — it’s usually because you love the director, or you’re not sure about the script but this is a fantastic theatre company I’ve always wanted to work with, or whatever. There so often seemed to be a reason to say yes, so it started to be reasons to say no, because of just time and family, and that I suddenly realized there was this opportunity to start doing on-camera stuff, and start working in that world. And it took a lot of practice, and a lot of us theatre actors (women especially) talk a lot about feeling uncomfortable in that world, in the film world — feeling like we don’t look the right way, or we were told a lot as theatre actors in theatre school that we were too big. We were acting too big for the screen, which I think is categorically untrue — it’s just a different type of acting, it’s not even really that different.

And I worked with the casting director as their reader, and I learned so much. And so, yeah, that’s been my big transition, and I’ve loved it. I haven’t left the stage, but it’s been a while now (especially because of COVID) that I’ve had a chance to act on stage. We talk about this in our show, in My Special Guest, that my character sort of jokes that I’ve actually never worked as much as I have because of COVID or whatever. It’s not really true, but true, too. I feel very lucky that I had already started to make that transition before it was literally the only work that you could do as an actor, was on screen. There was no live theatre for almost two years. It’s still getting back on its feet. Anyhow, so that was my big transition, and it’s scary and fun, and I love it.

Rebecca
But it’s liberating, right, as artists, I think, to say no?

Jenny
Oh my God.

Rebecca
To say this is a space of my life where now I get to say no, and I’m not just like, “Whatever you give me!”

Juno
Yeah. Oh, big time. Because that’s how we’ve been, you know, raised as actors, young actors — is like, “Say yes to everything, and you never say no.” You give up everything else before you give up the theatre contract or whatever, right? And there has to come a time where you do say no. Somebody said to me a quote: “You know your worth when you can say no.” Or something like that, I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something around you know you’ve reached a level when you can say no, or when you do say no, when you start saying no. It’s a little bit chicken-and-egg too, right? Like, if you say no too early, then everybody’s like, “Well, you know, forget it then.”

Jenny
Yeah, you have to sort of pay…

Juno
Pay your dues, yeah.

Jenny
It’s so unfortunate. I hate to say this, but almost all of the time it’s monetarily not as rewarding. Like, once you get older and you’ve got kids and you realize you’re going to spend so much on transit and the babysitting and stuff — I hate to say this, but theatre, it’s really financially not a great career. It isn’t. I mean, that’s not always true. You know, you can work at the festivals, and I have worked at both of them and I love it. You know, it wasn’t for me to stay down at those places year after year. It was not what was in my DNA. But I loved working at those places. And they do make it monetarily… you can survive. But if you’re doing the circuit in Toronto, it’s really hard. It’s a really hard place to be, unfortunately — financially, too. So you’re saying yes all the time to literally everything, to try to make ends meet. So it’s crazy.

Natalie
So then tell us more about the actual concept of My Special Guest.

Juno
The concept was similar in the way of like… I think I was still on Workin’ Moms and I was like, “Jenny, what do you want to do? Let’s do something.” You know, because we love working together. We love each other as friends and humans and artists. And also we have so much fun together and make each other laugh in a very unique way. And so we’re just like, “Let’s figure out something to do. Let’s do something together.” And really that’s where it came from. And we sat down at a café in Toronto and came up with this idea sort of playing on this fame, this Juno character, this sort of heightened version of myself who, you know, just thinks she’s pretty hot shit and is going to get all these cool guests on her show — but what if the only guest she could get was her best friend? Playing on a little bit of the Canadian fame — like I can’t go anywhere, me personally can’t go anywhere, without being recognized every day. But I don’t have a pool, you know what I mean? Like that kind of thing where it’s like just this funny little thing between fame and reality, right? Expectation and reality. We really wanted to play with that. It’s our clowns, essentially. These versions of ourselves are our clowns. And I love self-deprecating things. I think they’re the funniest. Yeah, I just think it’s so funny when you see somebody uncomfortable and squirming and can’t make it work.

Jenny
Juno, you’ve talked about this before: that as an actor, you really don’t have a lot of control over what you’re doing. Like, you are always in the hands of other people — which I also think is also delightful. I sometimes just love showing up as the actor and doing my job. Me, I’m the actor, I don’t have to think about anything else. I do that here in this home all the time. I just want to be an actor. But we also, Juno and I come from creative backgrounds where we have been creating our own work our whole lives. And it does get to the point where you’re like, “But I want to do our thing just for us.” And it literally came from ‘just for us.’ Let’s just make each other laugh. It’ll probably make other people laugh, but let’s just do it for us and see what comes of it.

Rebecca
I like the Jann Arden potty humour with the toilet paper. I just like that. The two ply, the three ply — that was good, you guys.

Jenny
She was really game for it all. It was pretty incredible.

Rebecca
Really — she was like, “Sure!”?

Juno
Yeah. Jumped in, put her own stuff in, just went to town. One of the best people we’ve ever worked with, hands down.

Jenny
Oh my gosh.

Rebecca
We keep hearing that about Jann Arden, yeah.

Juno
It’s all true. It’s all true.

Jenny
The thing about the shellac coming off her nail, popping through the… that’s all her own thing that she added in. Like, she was throwing in gems over and over all day long. It was great.

Juno
And that’s a connection from Workin’ Moms, right? So it’s like it all kind of blends together. And so I had this very small relationship with her. She came on to play Dani’s mom in season two, I think, and was very kind. And we met, and ‘hello,’ and everything, and then just sort of kept this little fire burning, essentially, and reached out to her to see if she’d want to do this, and she’s like, “Yeah, where do I go? Where do I fly?” And she shows up with her suitcase, you know, the studio warehouse thing. It’s burned in my brain, and I want to be that person for someone else. Do you know what I mean? Like, I want to be that mentor, that person that has sort of established herself and has really settled into herself as an actor, creator, writer, musician, all the things, and is showing up for the other people. You know? It’s just cool. There’s something really cool about that.

Jenny
Certainly doing our thing together. We’ve created together. But yeah, it’s next level, I think, absolutely.

Natalie
Is success in this new space with the two of you doing it together, is that looking new? Like, has it been reframed in some way?

Juno
From the outside, it’s like, yeah, this is next level. But personally, in my heart, like, we shot four episodes in three days, and I remember going, “I want to do this every day.” Like, I want to be here in this environment with my best friend doing this every day. So yes, we didn’t get paid. It’s a whole thing of love for the production company, for Jenny and I, for Mike the writer, all of us as the writers. So that’s the reframe. So the successes… looks very differently but is fully fulfilling.

Rebecca
I was listening to… sometimes I avoid the Goop Podcast just because I feel like Gwyneth Paltrow doesn’t need more support. But then sometimes she has really good guests… I know it’s like a weird… but she did have an interesting psychologist guest on who was talking about sort of attaching less to things. That we can want success, but if we can also release the possibility that it might not happen. Do you also have that feeling kind of, in your 40s now, that you can… or even Juno, with this leap, or Jenny and this new, whatever, transition out of theatre into film. Are you less attached to that it must look a certain way — there’s a myriad ways for success to look? Or is that still pretty challenging in this entertainment space?

Jenny
It’s a struggle as an artist, actor — I think your whole life. I think you’re constantly reframing. I think you are absolutely. I struggle with this answer because I don’t want to say that I don’t think that all those great things can happen, because it’s weirdly also like the lottery, this business. Like sometimes it’s just who you know, or you look right — and I don’t mean you’re fit enough, or whatever. You might look like the sister of the big star that’s in the film and then you get cast as their sister, and you know. There’s this weird lottery part of the business that you kind of have to always have a little bit of faith in, because it’s also what makes it really fun. It often feels like you won the roll of the dice. But in saying that, I also know that it takes hard work and talent and precision, you know, and all the things that you want in any craft. But yes, it looks different constantly.

And as you have family, you know, no longer am I thinking, you know, at 45, I don’t imagine I’m going to be the blockbuster You know, A-lister. I mean, who knows? It could happen. There’s always the roll of the dice. But you know, I didn’t ever think that anyway, because I’m also trying to always stay realistic because it’s also hellish if you don’t stay realistic. Who wouldn’t think that would be amazing? But you also have to be realistic about what the possibilities are. Otherwise you’ll be unhappy all the time. But yeah, absolutely. Or you do something and you go, “Oh, I did that for me, for theatre or something. Oh, I played a lead at the Stratford, I played the lead at the Shaw Festival.” Those were two things that were like, “That is it. That is all I wanted.” And then I did it and I was like, “Great, ok, now what’s next?” And I think we are all doing that all the time — kind of, “Ok, what’s next?” For me, I just realized I’m wearing free show stuff because that’s basically my whole wardrobe. I’m doing this little part on this show The Lake, and it’s so small but so much fun, and I love it so much. And ten years ago, I would have mocked me. But now I’m like, “I love it. It’s low stress. I get to be funny. I barely have any lines. I just kind of do silly stuff in the background that people think is funny.” And I’m like, “Yes, this is the best. I love this show so much.” So, yes, reframe in that world.

Juno
The one thing I’ll add to that is before Workin’ Moms happened for me, we had moved our family across the country. You know, Vancouver is home, and we bought a house in Hamilton online and got in the car and moved our little family. My youngest was three. Moved out here. Didn’t know anybody — knew Jenny and Gord in Toronto, but didn’t know anybody. So that’s that leaping quality of mine where I’m like, “There’s something else. There’s something else here. I know it’s not in Vancouver and I can’t figure out where it is.” And we sort of started to follow this notion and all the signs were pointing here. So we get to Hamilton, we buy this beautiful home. We’re super happy here, but, you know, it’s still a struggle because we’re independent creators and we haven’t made any sort of name for ourselves or connections, and doing odd jobs here and there. And I was actually shoe shining at the time with Jenny. And I remember coming home one day from that long trip into Toronto and back on the GO bus and just looking at Mike and going, “It’s not supposed to be like this. This isn’t working.” And, you know, “I expected something better.” And really crushed — just, like, a full-on collapse. And we had this conversation like, “What if this is it? What if this is it? How are we going to be in this moment and moving forward in our lives?” Because really, this is it. We are where we are where we are. There’s nothing you could do to change. You know what I mean? That fundamental piece of holding on to, like, “It should have been something different, but this is what it is.”

I remember really releasing into that and going, “Ok, I have a beautiful house, my family is happy, we did this incredible, like, leap of faith, we’re going to be fine. I have an agent. Blah, blah, blah.” And then, you know, next six months or so is when Workin’ Moms comes. So you have to let go into what is, essentially. But, as Jenny was saying, also keep going. Following the notion of what you want to try next, or what would be an interesting idea. And for me, we are surrounded by people who are driven by fame, and that is a very different beast, and I applaud them for it, and it’s hard. Oh my God, it’s hard. It’s so hard. But that’s never been my M.O. Same with Jenny — never been our number one thing. We just want to keep creating and raise a family and feel good about our art. Anyway, and then I look back at my younger self, my Studio 58 self, and to look forward now. Like, I got really close to getting a wicked part on Fargo, and I would have been playing Jon Hamm’s wife, and I was just like, so excited. I couldn’t believe it. I got close. Who knows how close that is, whatever.

Jenny
You got close.

Juno
I got close. So if I look back on that, like my younger self — Jenny, our Studio 58 self, we would have just lost our minds. We would have been like, “What? You made it! That’s it! That’s it! That’s it!”

Jenny
I did kind of lose my mind for you. I did lose my mind that you were close. I did. I still lost my mind on that.

Juno
But we would never have thought that we would be in those spaces, I guess. And it’s just sort of this natural progression. We’re lucky that we’ve been able to continue doing what we love for so long, and, you know, stay in the space of it.

Jenny
Big time.

Rebecca
It’s very cool that you had your epiphany before your success, Juno.

Juno
I know.

Rebecca
I think there’s something for all of us there.

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Tell us more about your relationship because it’s so beautiful to be in the same profession where you could be driven by competition, but you’re supporting each other. And also, is it the mom part that is also bonding you — does that help? Tell me about your friendship.

Jenny
Since the moment Juno and I met… I’m always a little bit dishevelled and Juno is a little bit more together, like in terms of our appearances and how we present ourselves in the world. Anyhow, and so she talks about how the first time she sort of experienced me was me struggling up this hill in Vancouver in the rain with, like, a backpack, I’m not joking you, that was my dad’s from the 60s — with books falling out of it, and my bike seat was too low, and Juno just rode by, recognized me from school, from the studio, and went, “I got to figure out who that person is.” And honestly, from the moment we started hanging out, I don’t know, we’ve had a few moments, glitches in our relationship. But, like, I don’t know, there’s something about our relationship. I don’t know if it would have mattered if one of us didn’t have kids.

Juno
I don’t think it would have, to be honest. I think it’s a very separate entity. Like, our families are friends and we love each other and that we love each other’s kids, but there’s a separate entity that is just us, that has kind of always, always been there.

Jenny
Yeah. It’s so rare in that anytime that Juno and I have felt like, “Oh, shoot…” or, you know, if I feel like, “I wonder if I overstepped with Juno on that piece of advice or whatever, or that thing I made a joke about it,” you know, I go to Juno. “Sorry, I should have…,” “Did I…?” It’s almost always, “No, God. No. Did I overstep?” You know, we’ve never, Juno and I have just never come at each other, or had big arguments. We’ve lived together. It’s just delightful.

Juno
We actually did get married, guys, so…

Jenny
Oh my God, I forgot about that, yeah. You had a boyfriend at the time. You were with Mike.

Juno
I had a boyfriend, Jenny was single, but we got married. We bought these rings, and got married. I don’t know, it was… yeah — I spoke about that at our wedding.

Rebecca
Wait, you got married together?

Juno
Not really, no, no. Just pretend, like…

Jenny
We bought these little rings from Fort Steele. Juno was working at Fort Steele, like in the sidewalk shows that you go and see when you’re at, like, a heritage village.

Juno
Yeah, heritage village, yeah.

Jenny
We bought these, like, rings that were made out of, like, hand-hewn nails. You know, the guy that’s… whatever they’re called.

Juno
The blacksmith.

Jenny
And so we each bought a ring like that, and we put it out, and then we were like, “Well, that’s us, married forever.” Ridiculous.

Natalie
No, it’s not. Actually, it’s really gorgeous, because I mean, in so many ways I could not… I just left teaching after 20 years with the public education system to come and work full-time with Rebecca on a podcast.

Juno
Wow, good for you.

Natalie
Oh — well, thanks. But it’s just kind of fascinating to see sort of mirrored lives not just in, you know, women in their 40s doing big transitions, but women doing things in support of each other as they make these transitions. And I think there’s sort of a sister-wife bond thing — that what you’re gesturing to is how I feel with Bec. Like, I could not have made that shift without her support. And the support was something that was planted years ago — like just as, like, a little nugget, you know what I mean? It’s like a thought. And so, you know, we were just wondering if that transition that both of you have made in your various ways — like your sister-wife experience with each other obviously has informed that transition. But would you also say that it’s kind of been coming for a while?

Jenny
I think the opportunity for us to do something together on screen… you know what we’ve said several times, Juno, is that it’s reminded us how well we work together, because it had been so long.

Juno
How much we like to work together, yeah. That’s right. It had been so long, yeah. We’d sort of forgotten.

Jenny
Yeah, and we would pass back and forth drafts for the episodes, and then we would talk about them, and we would almost, like, every couple of months go, “God, it’s so easy writing with you.” She would make a change and I’d be like, “Oh, I love that change. That’s so much better than mine.” And I’d make a change, and she would say the same. So no matter where this show ends up going, My Special Guest ends up going, what it did do for us is it reminded us — because we were in family land and stuff, and just kind of pursuing our own stuff, always together as friends, but pursuing our own careers. And it was a huge reminder as to how easy it is to work with each other, and how it flowed, really, the ideas. And we’d build on each other — we’re not kind of going next to each other, we’re constantly building on top of each other’s ideas, which is super fun.

Natalie
I get that. I laugh more in my day-to-day now than I ever did, because of just Becca saying very little things that wouldn’t mean much to anybody else — but to me, it’s funny. So there’s something wonderful about having that kind of interconnection.

Rebecca
Well, I’m just funny, Nat.

Natalie
You’re just really funny.

Rebecca
I’m just funny.

Jenny
How long have you two known each other for?

Juno
No, they’re sisters, Jenny.

Natalie
We’re sister sisters.

Jenny
Oh my God, I’m sorry. I forgot about that.

Natalie
No, it doesn’t matter. I mean, like, but we’re also…

Jenny
Right, sorry. God, I knew that. I’m sorry, I completely forgot. So you’ve known each other for a really long time.

Rebecca
It’s been a while.

Natalie
For, like, a really long time. 42 years.

Rebecca
It could be confusing, actually, because sometimes people act like, “We’re sisters,” — but it’s just an emotional connection.

Jenny
Yeah. Well, you were saying ‘sister-wives’ and stuff. It’s like, “Yeah, buddy. Yeah yeah yeah.”

Rebecca
No, we’re actually.

Jenny
Sorry. Yeah, I completely forgot. Right. That’s so cool. We’re kind of like sisters.

Juno
That relationship though, like the actual blood sisters, or the friend sisters, or however you want to put the sister thing on it, is out there. But there’s not a lot of, like… what am I trying to say? I’m trying to say that to find a friend or to feel really bonded with your actual sister is a unique experience. You know, there’s a lot of women out there… “Oh, my you’re my sister,” this and that, and this and that. Mm… it’s hard to throw that label on unless you really feel it, you know what I mean? And that can come in the form of blood sister, or, you know, friend sister or whatever. But yeah, it’s unique. I would say it’s unique.

Rebecca
I would say it’s unique, and we need to do an episode where we really unpack it — like, what are the qualities? Because it is unique and it is hard because we evolve. Because I was also wondering if the two of you, do you feel like — because I do feel like this with you, Nat, I never sort of reached the depths of you. Like, there’s new things… do you feel that with each other, Juno and Jenny?

Natalie
Right, like there’s always more to learn.

Rebecca
Yeah, like you’re kind of discovering each other and that makes it exciting.

Juno
Definitely. And also, she’s the only one… I don’t know if you guys feel like this, but Jenny is the only one who really knows all the blackness, you know? Or all the sort of stuff where you’re like, “Seen it all.” You know, we’re all shy about all that stuff, and it just rolls off her back. It’s like, “But that’s just who you are, and I love all of it.” So that’s pretty awesome.

Natalie
Yeah, that stuff that happens in the shadows.

Jenny
And when you’ve known each other for so long, as you guys obviously have, and we have (since we were 19 or something when we met, so that’s a lot of life experience), there’s a shorthand. You know, we were just talking about something the other day that Juno was working on and and I just, you know, was like, “Well, think about this other thing that you overcame when you were 23, and you know, you’ve got that experience.” And being able to just go, like, “We’ve got a shorthand with each other.”

Juno
That’s a reframe.

Natalie
Totally.

Jenny
Yeah.

Juno
That was a really brilliant reframe, Jenny. That one you did, which I actually took back to my therapist, and I said, “My friend Jenny said this. She reframed it for me and now I see it totally differently.”

Natalie
So I should pay her.

Juno
Yeah, it’s helpful. And along the lines of reframe, I just want to say this: I did a half marathon recently, and I was tanking halfway through. Just, like, tanking. Like, “I’m not going to finish this, I hate this so much.” My coach was running a little ahead of me and she said, “How are you doing?” I said, “I’m tanking. I’m tanking. I’m tanking.” She said, “No, we’re just going to reframe this. You’re regrouping. You’re regrouping. You’re regrouping.” And it was like, “Oh, you just reframed it so quickly for me, and sure, I can regroup. I don’t need to tank, I’m just regrouping.: So I like that. I think reframing, like, your whole podcast, your idea around it is really interesting, and can be done in any situation.

Natalie
What are some of the reframing tools you think you would sort of grab hold of? I mean, obviously therapy could be one of them.

Juno
Oh, yeah, your list — I do all of those things, I think.

Natalie
Yeah, eh? That’s awesome.

Juno
Yeah, I was like, “Oh, mm-hmm. I paint. I do that.” No, for me, the biggest reframe for me is running, though. That’s changed everything for me. I mean, I’ve always been very active as a person my whole life, but having this really disciplined sort of outlet is… to go as far as to say, like, it’s really saved me. And so that’s been helpful.

Rebecca
Juno, are you naturally a fairly disciplined person? Or is it that running has brought that discipline into your life? I’m really interested in runners.

Juno
I’m the kind of person that in high school, when you got, like, a project to do, I would finish it two days before the due date, because I didn’t like to have this, like… sliding it in under the radar. I like to be prepared, and… I guess I like to be prepared. In control. I don’t know, there’s probably a few things around that. But, yeah, disciplined. If I have a deadline, I’m going to do the deadline. And so this marathon was a deadline, and so I did everything I was supposed to do until the deadline.

Rebecca
Jenny, what about your reframers? Can we say that, Nat — a ‘reframer’?

Natalie
You just did. Go with it.

Rebecca
I said it. It’s a thing now.

Jenny
I’ve had so many changes in my life the last year and a half. We live in the country now, our little town outside of Toronto — we moved out to Uxbridge. So that has been a big thing. And a lot of things I’m learning, I love about it because it’s given me space between the big city filled with people who I want to see. It’s given me the space to go, “I’m not going to go in to see seven shows,” or whatever. I’m going to stay and cook. As I said before, this is my happy place behind me — doing all things in the kitchen, whether it’s baking bread, or cooking curry, or whatever. I also bought a business last fall — just finished my first full year of owning a chain of shoe shine shops in the underground, in the PATH in Toronto.

Natalie
Really? That’s awesome.

Jenny
It was my side hustle. It was Juno’s side hustle. It was my side hustle for, like, 18 years — I’m not joking. Off and on, I would shoe shine downtown, but then I started helping the woman run the business, who owned it, who started the business. And then after COVID, she said, “I don’t want to restart the business.” You know, it went to zero. So I bought it off of her. So my big thing now is I’m really enjoying creating different spaces throughout my week. It makes me feel so much happier if I can say I’m going to spend the first two days of the week on computer stuff and running my business, and then the last part of the week, I get to do my creative stuff in the kitchen. And I don’t know if that’s necessarily what you mean by reframing, but…

Natalie
Oh, I think that is 100% of reframing practice in my version of it. I mean, when I look at it as sort of a tool, a bunch of tools that one can put into place to help garner new perspectives on whatever might be hurdles that we’re going through, some of it might just be patterns, right? I mean, if you’ve got patterns of when you can make work look this way and then make creative work look this way, and you’ve got spaces and boundaries around them, I mean, that just seems like a really healthy way to be.

Jenny
The thing about being an actor or an artist, self-employed, is that we don’t have any consistency or any kind of patterns or schedules that are normal — like, ever. And then when you’re working theatre or film, it’s crazy. Like, the hours are bonkers. And then you’re not working and there’s nothing, and you feel like you don’t know what to do with all that space and time. And then you’re working, you’re working so many long hours that everything at home falls to shit, and so, ugh! Seriously, it’s like 45 and I’m going, “Ok.” It’s like when I figured out that making meal plans… oh my God. Making meal plans changed my life, like, three years ago. I couldn’t believe it. Like, environmentally I felt like I was doing better because I wasn’t just buying stuff when I was hungry that are packaged, and then, you know, money-wise, and just my sanity. And it’s the same with this, trying to figure out how to sort of, like, meal plan my week is brand new, and it’s really helping — if I can stick to it.

Natalie
That’s brilliant. That’s great.

Rebecca
Nat, that must have just made you so happy.

Natalie
Oh, I feel so validated in everything that I’ve ever been. I’m like, “Welcome to the teacher’s life.” That is one of the things I miss a little bit, is the rigidity of a schedule. I like the flex that I now have, but the bells ringing told me when to eat. So in some ways, then, you are much more regulated in terms of how you make sure you do attempt to care for yourself, anyways. So great, really great that you’ve got these developing systems.

Ok, we have a few little speed roundy-type questions that is going to be fun to do with two people because you have to kind of go back and forth, and you only get a couple of words to answer them.

Jenny
Who goes first?

Natalie
You guys decide, so make your choice now.

Juno
Go ahead, Jenny.

Jenny
How about we take turns? I’ll go first first time. You go first second time. Ok.

Natalie
Ok, first question is… go ahead, Bec.

Rebecca
What is the last new skill you learned?

Jenny
Like, figuring out what door frames are, and baseboards, and stuff for my renovation because I’ve never done one before.

Juno
Guys, I don’t know.

Jenny
Running, Juno. Running. Your whole running thing.

Juno
Yeah, it’s got to be running. But not just, like, running — like, learning how to monitor my heart rate, and what my VO levels are. Running’s a whole thing. So yeah, that’s the new skill, for sure.

Natalie
Ok. What’s a common myth or something that people misunderstand about your profession? And you can choose which profession you want to do, because you’re all wearing many hats.

Juno
That we’re flaky weirdos. I just hate that so much. It drives me crazy. There are — there are flaky weirdos, that’s part of it, you know, but we’re not all like that. Or, this is another one that bugs me, is that we’re all extroverts. Also untrue. I’m a dual citizen. So I can be out there and enjoying the party and part of the crew and do the thing, but I got to come home and shut ‘er down. So we’re not all extroverts. Your turn, Jenny.

Jenny
That we make lots of money.

Juno
Exactly. Exactly.

Rebecca
Ok, the funnest thing you did (or are doing, going to do) today.

Jenny
This — this podcast. I’m not joking, because it’s like taxes for my business, and school interviews. Which are fine, that’s ok.

Rebecca
Yeah, me too — interview.

Juno
I booked a small little role on a new feature that is so cool. It’s got some wicked people in it. I’m a very tiny little role in it. It just feels like a really amazing space to be in. So why I have to leave at two is I’m going to do my costume fitting for that.

Jenny
Side note, talking about support, Jenny Young also auditioned for this part. Juno booked it. Love that she booked it. That’s something we go through all the time.

Juno
We do, actually.

Jenny
Love that Juno booked it.

Juno
Yeah, like if she books something, or if I book something, it’s like pompoms and cheering. There’s no weirdness there. So yeah, it’s great.

Natalie
I love that.

Rebecca
How would you teach people to be that way? Let’s make this a speed question: how do you teach people to live generously the way you do with one another? That’s very speedy.

Natalie
Yes. And we’ll end on that nugget of wisdom.

Juno
How do you teach people to do that? I would say work on your own shit, and it’s not always about you.

Jenny
I would say it feels 150% better to be excited for your friend than to not. I have struggled with it before, not with Juno, but with other friends, and it is awful. It’s awful to feel that way, and it’s so exciting to be excited for them. And as my husband says (and we tell our children this), “Comparison always injures.” Like, to compare ourselves to anybody, it just ends up injuring our own selves. So I don’t even look at it as like, “Well, that means Juno is something better than me, or…” I’m just so excited that that’s her reality that she’s doing that. I’m not reflecting it back on myself. It’s just her thing that’s awesome.

Juno
Exactly, yeah — and there’s space for all of us. Like, there is enough, that’s the thing. That’s I think one of the misconceptions, too, as an actor, creator, is that you have to hold it tight, and grab onto it when you get it, and never let it go, and you can’t have it. It’s like, “No, there is space for all faces and ages and sexes and whatever. There is enough.” And the more we can support each other, the more, like Jenny said, you’re just going to feel better about the whole thing. It’s hard enough, man.

Jenny
It’s hard enough.