Rebecca
And Bec — two very different sisters who come together once a month to reframe some of life’s big and small problems. We’re moms, writers.

Natalie
We have soft boundaries. We see the world differently, but we both lean into vulnerability together and with our guests, because we like deep dives. So come with us, let’s reframe something.

Rebecca
This week, we are chatting with Vanity Fair contributing editor Leah Faye Cooper. We met Leah at South by Southwest, where she was facilitating a panel of influencers with the likes of Dr. Shah and Olivia Culpo. The conversation went down the road of Botox and fillers, and the external work one can do on oneself.

Natalie
And that prompted me to ask if Leah wanted to come on Reframeables and talk about the more holistic work that we can do on ourselves and in the world, but through the eyes of a fashion writer.

Rebecca
Hence we talk all things fashion and culture, and what we may or may not want to do to our faces, as well as what the industry is really like — who stays, who gets out.

Natalie
So let’s get to it: reframing working on ourselves with Leah Faye Cooper.

Ok, I’m going to dive right in. We are reframing working on ourselves with Vanity Fair contributing editor Leah Faye Cooper. Leah, so wonderful to have you here. We met at South by Southwest because I accosted you.

Leah
You said hello. You said hello.

Natalie
I was like, “Oh my goodness, that was an amazing panel that you had just led (and moderated, obviously).”

Leah
Thank you so much.

Natalie
We loved it. It was a panel of influencers, and I think I was supposed to be super-interested in the influencers — and I was, they were interesting. But it was you. I was really quite taken.

Leah
Oh, thank you.

Natalie
Oh, for real. And I turned to Rebecca, and I was like, “I’m going to go talk to her, and I’m going to get her on Reframeables.” And I think it was because of the way that you brought together a panel of really just kind of like very all over the place voices and made it make sense for me. But how was this panel (which was really about kind of people working on themselves), how was it framed to you, and tell us a little bit about that experience?

Leah
Yeah, so first, you know, I was approached by Variety and SHE Media, and they had partnered with Allergan, which is a huge pharma-cosmetics brand. And it was framed to me as, and the theme of the panel really was, like, authenticity in the age of social media. And that obviously, you know, procedures like Botox, like filler, you know, like plastic surgery are, like, very, very, very popular, very pervasive. Social media, also very popular, also very pervasive. And that if people choose to do any of those things, any kind of cosmetic procedure done — one, they should feel empowered to do that, you know, because it’s their body. There should not be any shame in that. And also, it should be something that they are open to sharing and being authentic about. It wasn’t framed as, like, “People have to, you know, go on Instagram Live and show themselves getting Botox.” But it was framed as, like, you know, being your authentic self on social media can have a really, really positive impact for both yourself and the people who follow you.

Like, obviously, people are so, so, so influenced by what they see on social media. And what most people are sharing are highlights — you know, most people sharing, like, “I’m on vacation,” you know, “I just did this exciting thing,” or, “Look at how, you know, pretty my hair looks today.” And, you know, there have been lots of studies done that show that consuming a lot of social media can, you know, make you feel kind of bad about yourself sometimes — you know, especially when you consider, like, the filters and all of those things. You’re not really seeing an authentic image of, you know, life. So that’s how it was framed to me: kind of like being authentic, not being shy about, you know, if a follower says, like, “Your skin looks great,” not being afraid to say, “Thanks, I’m two weeks out from Botox right here.” As opposed to, you know, just saying, “Thank you,” or just saying, like, “Yes, I slept eight hours and drank a lot of water today.”

Natalie
Because water fixes everything.

Leah
Right — and sleep.

Natalie
Right, right — and we all get enough of that.

Rebecca
The people on the panel, they were very transparent about the Botox and fillers they were doing, right? Like, many of them were bringing their audience right into the room with them while they were getting it done and all that.

Leah
Yeah, absolutely. So one, Felicia Walker, who’s a fantastic, fantastic writer, she was a pioneer in the beauty blogging space — ThisThatBeauty is the name of her content. And she is super-transparent on social media, like, records herself getting chemical peels, getting Botox, getting filler — which I think is great, and it’s super-informative. I think one thing that can be scary, you know, is that if you’re just seeing all these images of people that, you know, look ‘perfect,’ quote-unquote, you may be compelled to go seek out these procedures without really knowing, like, what they entail. And there’s a cost there, you know? Like, there’s a financial cost, there’s, you know, you’re altering your appearance. And so, I think that it’s really great when people are, you know, transparent and authentic about what they’re doing, and it gives you kind of an insight of what to expect. I know me personally, like, if I see someone doing something, and they’re like, “First we start with numbing cream,” I’m like, “Nope, it’s not for me. It’s not for me.”

Rebecca
You’re like, “If you need numbing cream, I’m not doing it.”

Leah
I try to avoid it at all cost, yes. My pain tolerance is not the highest. And it’s also just interesting, you know? Like, technology is cool, and like all the advances that have been made, especially in, like, cosmetic dermatology is really fascinating. So I love seeing that stuff.

Rebecca
So are you fundamentally pro-all these things? Or are you kind of neutral about it? And the reason I’m asking is because I’m trying to figure out, like, why I’m a little bit shy. I haven’t done anything — I’m not against it, but I also feel like people aren’t talking about it in my circles. I don’t know. What’s your stance, and help me understand what my problem is?

Leah
Yeah, so working in fashion and beauty, I’m definitely in those circles. Yeah, it’s super common — like, all of my friends are very transparent about it. Like, I’m on many group chats that’s like, “Did you like your Botox experience with this person?” or like, “Where should I get my lip filler next?”

Rebecca
And everyone’s doing it?

Leah
A lot of people. Not everyone, but a lot of people. I happen to be, like, among people who, you know, participate in lots of these procedures, and who are very open about it. I think, for me, I am pro- — very pro-, so long as you are really doing it for yourself. But I think that that can kind of be hard to discern sometimes because, like I said, it’s very popular. And I think it can be hard for people to sometimes say, like, “Ok, am I doing this because I really, really, really, really want to for myself, or am I doing it because I feel like I need to look a certain way, because society is telling me that I need to look a certain way?” So that’s definitely, like, a grey area. But yeah, I say have at it, you know?

Natalie
Oh, I like that.

Leah
And I will say I personally have not done anything cosmetic — like, I’ve not tried Botox or filler. I’m a fashion person and I’ve never gotten super into, like, beauty and skincare and procedures. I love a facial — I do love a facial. But, like, it’s not that I haven’t done it because I think it’s bad, or, like I’m, you know, fighting against society’s ideals. I just simply haven’t. You know, I remember a friend’s sister got some Botox right ahead of her wedding and it made her so happy, and she looked amazing, and that was great. And, like, that’s the case with a lot of my threads, you know?

Natalie
That’s beautiful, because I was actually waiting for that story to take a turn and it to say, “…and it went really wrong.” But it wasn’t, and that’s a really good thing to hear.

Leah
Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. And I also had, you know, a dermatologist once told me, she was like, “You know, you see good work all the time, but you don’t know.” And I think that sometimes a lot of these procedures do get a bad rap when people are going overboard, or they’re not going to a doctor or they’re not going to a reputable place, so the result is not what they wanted or, you know, it’s not great. But a lot of people are doing these procedures, but you don’t know because it’s good — it’s really being done well, right?

Rebecca
All right, well, maybe I’ll open up if I do something. I’ll bring everyone into the room.

Leah
Yeah — right.

Rebecca
So you’re a culture and fashion writer / editor for a big magazine. So I can wrap my head around fashion as a term, but culture is a bit more amorphous. So what does it mean to you, and how does it inform your work and your writing — this idea of culture?

Leah
Yeah, well, I’ll say it’s amorphous to me as well.

Rebecca
Ok.

Leah
I mean, everything from, like, art, music, fashion to, like, infrastructures and technology, and how all of those things kind of inform our experiences — like how we live, like pervasive trends, things that, you know, we latch on to as communities is really popular. I don’t know how good of an example this is, but I’ll say like, maybe it was like 10 years ago, this very popular pastry chef created a cronut — or he brought the cronut to New York City. And that was like a big cultural moment — like, everyone in New York City was going crazy over this cronut. Tourists from out of town were, like, lined up waiting hours for this cronut, and that was a big cultural moment. And that was like part of the culinary world, but that kind of had this huge boom outside of this, like, very insular culinary world, and kind of was influencing people all over New York, and, you know, people all over the world, really, who are coming to New York.

Natalie
Well, I remember that. I mean, we’re in Toronto, and I remember that. So isn’t that funny? Like, that does sort of point to some kind of extension that happens with a specific kind of touchstone. What is it, like an object — or that’s what’s kind of fascinating about it.

Leah
Yeah.

Rebecca
But are sometimes you’re like, “I don’t know.” Because culture, it is so big. Because I’m thinking of how I see lately… I forget what magazine it is, the New York Magazine? They’ve been writing about where the Succession stars would eat.

Leah
Oh… wait, New York Magazine?

Rebecca
Is it New York Magazine?

Leah
I mean, I know New York Magazine, they cover Succession really extensively.

Rebecca
Ok, so maybe it’s them. But I’m like, “That’s culture,” and, like, it’s just very broad.

Leah
I think Succession is a really good example, because, you know, the show is inspired by the Murdochs and other very powerful media families. So you have this real life element that’s being filmed in New York City. So I have seen a few stories where they’re talking about, like, “This is where the people, you know, on Succession eat.” And then also recently, a big cultural conversation that sparked from Succession was this idea of quiet luxury — you know, that everyone on the show, you know, no one’s wearing a shirt that says, you know, Gucci, Prada. You know, no one’s wearing anything really loud, but the clothes are very expensive. You know, like someone’s wearing a beautiful pair of tailored pants. You go look up the pants, the pants are $3,000, and a lot of people wouldn’t know that. Do you guys watch Succession?

Rebecca
I’m way behind, although I keep seeing how this last season was, like, so crazy.

Leah
Yeah.

Rebecca
I do feel this, “Oh, I need to get…”

Natalie
Caught up.

Leah
Yeah.

Rebecca
I do need to get caught up and be like, “What was… what happens?”

Leah
So I will say… this isn’t, like, a big spoiler, but I will say there was a scene where someone was carrying a bag — very obviously, it was, you know, it had the logo splashed on it. Someone was making fun of it in the show. You know, it’s considered very gauche, you know, in that world. And so I think those types of things speak to culture as well.

Rebecca
Yeah, interesting. Had you posted recently about that quiet fashion? Because I saw some article about the Olsens as an example.

Leah
Yeah, their brand The Row. The Row is like the epitome of quiet luxury. I’ve not posted about it recently, but I have, like, read a lot about it.

Rebecca
Ok, yeah. I’m probably more attracted to that subtle rich thing.

Leah
Yeah.

Rebecca
Like, what is it? It goes back to that effortless thing, right? Like, “This wasn’t hard to appear this way, I just happen to have $3,000 to spend on pants that you wouldn’t notice.”

Leah
Right.

Rebecca
So there’s something so… I don’t know. What do you think, Nat? How would you describe that?

Natalie
For me, it’s highlighting how the notion of culture is really connected very much to class, right? Like, it’s related to money.

Leah
Yeah, there’s definitely an intersection there for sure.

Natalie
So I’m just really struck by that.

Leah
Yeah. I mean, there’s a term, a famous term: “Money talks, wealth whispers.” You know, when you say, like, ‘quiet luxury,’ I think really like that’s, you know, a reflection of that term — like, if you know, you know.

Natalie
There’s a guy that I follow, TV Scholar, he’s hilarious. He was a PhD dropout, is what he calls himself, and now he just basically studies TV, and then makes the most amazing memes out of his research. So he’ll just, like, grab a picture. So often his pictures are, like, stills from Succession, or… and it’s just like a perfectly encapsulated moment that speaks to a larger social truth, which I think is kind of where I sort of go with a) the idea of the ‘wealth whispers’ piece, because I think it’s why it makes for such great memes. Because the plebes over here are like, “Uh-huh.” Like, it’s just it’s also silly, and yet we are by proxy connected to it because of social media, and because of just media in general, right? Like, the medium is the message is a thing, and when McLuhan wrote that how many billions of years ago, it meant something in a world that is now shaped by all of what I mean, the three of us in very different ways are doing in our work here, right? I mean, like, whether it’s through the podcast or whether it’s through the writing and the magazine — I mean, it’s all connected. I find it fascinating. And I love that I knew about that bag, and I’ve never seen Succession, but I’ve seen every single shot of it, right?

Rebecca
Natalie only watches kid’s TV.

Natalie
It’s true.

Leah
Oh, really?

Rebecca
For some reason, her and her husband are such good, devoted parents that they only watch what their child watches.

Leah
What do you watch? Do you watch Wild Kratts? I have a niece and nephew.

Natalie
Oh, no. Ok, so my eight-year-old is now older, so we now get to watch things like Mandalorian. So does that really count as kid’s TV anymore? I don’t know. But I’ve written about it — like, for Chatelaine. So I mean, like, kid’s TV as, like, even just thinking about kind of the cultural zeitgeist that shows up in various sort of forms of art-making, I would say that in kid’s TV, there’s a whole other… but that’s for another show.

Rebecca
And now, some housekeeping. Hey Reframeables: do you get something from these conversations? Would you consider becoming a supporter on Patreon? For as little as $2 a month, you could help to keep this show going. It’s meaningful financially, and relationally — it feels like a hug. For our Patreon supporters, we do mini-episodes which we call Life Hacks and Enhancers — our five best things in a week. You could also tip us on our Ko-fi account, where Natalie’s recipe book is also for sale. Oh, and tell us what you want to hear more of — listener messages make our week. And don’t forget to subscribe to our newsletter. All the links are in our show notes. Love, Nat and Bec.

Natalie
Thinking of your art and what you make and put out in the world, we have definitely read some of your interviews with fashion designers, but we’ve also read your writing on, like (and I’ve written this one down here), “The inhibiting systemic policies faced by black farmers,” and we’ll definitely link to that article, because I just thought that one was such a neat one to read.

Leah
Thank you.

Natalie
And so your work ranges — obviously, Leah.

Leah
Yeah.

Natalie
How do you choose your topics?

Leah
So I have a background in fashion, that is what I love. I’ve loved, loved, loved clothes and style my whole life. So a lot of my work is just, you know, like, what is interesting in fashion, what’s, you know, on the cusp of becoming the next big thing, like who are interesting people who I think readers would be, you know, curious to learn more about? So that’s one way. And then, I mean, I am, you know, inundated with ideas — you know, like in pitches. The vast majority are not a fit for what I cover, but every time something, you know, comes across my email that I find interesting, I either bookmark it, or, you know, get in touch with, you know, the person who put it on my radar to see if there’s, like, an angle there. So a lot of it, I mean to be quite honest, is informed by, you know, my personal interests — so, you know, I have an interest in fashion, obviously. Also, as a black woman who has, you know, a platform to share stories, you know, on big name publications, I also, you know, am very cognizant of that, and always want to shine a light on black talent, and, you know, issues facing black communities. And so a lot of my work is informed by that too — just my experience as a black woman and being part of that community.

Natalie
And that specific article I was struck by, because it felt like the way that you presented it in the piece (and the beautiful photography that accompanied it, obviously), it made it feels like the dinner that I wanted to be at — like, I wanted to sit at that table and eat all that delicious food. But then I thought: so someone had to potentially pitch that to you, but you also have to go after these ideas. So, I mean, is there even some pressure that you sort of place on yourself to go after the stories that will not just resonate with readers, but that then resonate with you, so as not to lose yourself in this process? Like, you wanted to be at that meal.

Leah
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So that came to me — the organizers reached out, they were like, “We’d love to have you.” And I genuinely thought it was very interesting, just when you think about the history of America, and farming, and, you know, how unjust it is that, you know, black Americans who were responsible for farming for a long time, you know, without being paid for it. And then even, you know, the early to mid-, you know, 1900s, were really at the forefront of that industry. To now be so disenfranchised is awful. And so that really spoke to me, and I think also the fact that, you know, there was a chef who was very cognizant of that, and making a concerted effort to, you know, source from black farmers, I thought was cool. And yeah, and the dinner series was just a really fun event. You know, like, New York City, there’s always a million things going on at once. The city attracts a lot of really, really, really fantastic events, and that was one that really stood out to me.

But yeah, there are a lot of stories that I too have to go after for myself. I actually was at a dinner last night here in Los Angeles — there’s a brand that I want to do a really big story on, and the story would be quite ambitious because, you know, I would need access to lots of different people. You know, one very high profile person who has a crazy schedule. But I saw, you know, someone who worked for that brand happened to be at the dinner, and so I went to shoot my shot as the kids say, and I was like, “Hello. I would like to write this story — like, let me tell you about it. Let me tell you what I’m thinking.” So yeah, I take anything that has my name on it, or that I’m going to write very, very, very seriously. I want it to be interesting. I want it to be well-written. I want it to accurately and fairly portray, you know, whoever I’m writing about. So yes, I do put quite a bit of pressure on myself to make sure that I am going after really interesting stories, and then also, you know, delivering once those stories are assigned to me.

Rebecca
Right, like, you couldn’t just be like, “I want to interview Victoria Beckham.” Or you could be, but the question would be, “Why? What’s interesting about this now?” Or would you say always Victoria Beckham would be a good story.

Leah
I think always, especially if we can get the whole family, family.

Rebecca
It’s true.

Leah
I think the family is just, like, very cool. I really, honestly, if I’m being completely honest, I would love to interview Harper. She seems very cool.

Natalie
I know.

Rebecca
I know. You know what, they don’t put her on enough. I’m like, “What happened to her?”

Leah
I mean, I don’t even know how old she is. But I know she’s rather young.

Natalie
I think she’s like 11. She could be 12 now — but, yeah.

Leah
She just seems very cool to me.

Rebecca
She’s the only point in which that family feels normal. Don’t you guys feel that? You’re like, “Oh, that kid looks like just a normal kid.” But then you see her against the backdrop of… them.

Natalie
This whole big vibe.

Leah
Yeah. They seem like a fun family, though, for sure.

Rebecca
Do you understand your attraction to fashion? Have you analyzed it for yourself? What do you love about it? Like, is your mom super stylish? Do you have siblings? Like, how did you even… I feel like that might have been a missed calling for me. Like, how do you know that you love fashion?

Leah
I do not remember a time where I did not love fashion. I do not remember a time where I was not very serious about what I was going to wear. My cousins love to tell this story of how when I was, like, four years old, I was staying with them. It was the morning, it was time to get dressed. They tried to dress me in the clothes that my mother packed for me, and I was like, “That’s not the outfit I want to wear.” And it was like this huge standoff, and they were like, “Leah, these are the clothes that your mother packed for you.” And they were, like, wrestling me onto the ground, putting on these purple shorts, and I was like, “I do not want to wear these purple shorts today. It’s, like, not my vibe.” So from a very young age, I felt a very strong connection between, like, what I was wearing and how I felt.

I distinctly remember planning my outfits for the first week of kindergarten. I was like, “Kindergarten starts on Tuesday. Ok, I need four outfits.” And I literally planned them out — like, the first day one. I was very serious about that. And I was always wanting to wear things that were not practical. I, you know, tried to put on an Easter dress and my mom would be like, “You have PE today, you cannot wear an Easter dress.”

Natalie
And you’re like, “Watch me.”

Leah
Yeah, please, please put on something better. So that, and then I will say that my father really nurtured that interest in me. My father was an impeccably dressed man. He loved nice clothes. And from a young age… like, he was the one who took my sister and I shopping. You know, he would take us to all the, like, luxury department stores, and he would show me — he’d be like, “Look at these seams. Look at how these match up perfectly.” Like, “Feel this suede.” Like, “Look at these shoes.” Like, “Look at how well-made this is.” And so it was an interest that my father really nurtured. And I think also, like, when you get to middle school, and everyone is just awkward and crazy (at least I was), and, you know, you’re dealing with just lots of insecurities, fashion really did become my armour — like, that was just my thing. And if everything else felt crazy, like with friendships or just, you know, fighting with my parents because I was, you know, a hormonal, crazy teenager, or you know, like, whatever.

I come from a blended family, so that was a very crazy time in my life — like, my family blending, my parents getting divorced, my mom getting remarried. All of that stuff, no matter how crazy things are, this is something that I have somewhat of a control over. And I say ‘somewhat’ because there were definitely times where I got home and my mom had removed things from my closet that I had no business wearing at, you know, 12 or 13 years old. But for the most part, like, it was something I was like, “I have control over this. It’s interesting to me. It’s fun. It’s exciting.” And I honestly, like, I still do that. The other day, I spent, like, hours just looking in my closet and just thinking, like, “What can I put together that I haven’t worn before?” Like, “How can I wear this dress again, but wear it differently?” I just really, really love it, and I think that how you present yourself to the world is important, you know? I was born this way — long way of saying that.

Rebecca
Good answer. Have either of you seen that book, What Artists Wear?

Leah
I have not.

Natalie
Tell us a little bit about it.

Leah
Me too — yeah.

Rebecca
I haven’t read the whole thing — I keep getting it from the library and not finishing it. But it’s kind of about that fashion is significant to artists. It’s not just this superficial thing that…

Natalie
Could be dismissed.

Rebecca
Yeah, but that it’s integral to their identity. So what you’re saying, basically — this is a meaningful part of your identity.

Leah
Oh, yeah. And I also think, you know, and you said, like, it’s just not this superficial thing — I think that the fashion industry has really, you know, for years for being so like exclusionary, and also, you know, this promotion of brands that are just like, not attainable for most people. You know, it can be very intimidating, you know? People say there’s a big difference between, like, fashion and style. I really love style, and encouraging people to find their personal style and own it. And I’m not someone who works in fashion and thinks that, like, you know, being fashionable means that you have a closet full of designer labels and whatnot. You know, that’s just not true, you know? I’m someone who believes in rewearing their outfits, and remixing things, and shopping in your closet — especially now, you know, there’s a really big sustainability conversation going on in fashion. And, you know, as someone who works in the industry, I see just how wasteful it can be, you know, and how much damage, you know, this mass-production and fast fashion does to the planet. You know, whenever I get that reaction, whenever people, you know, talk about it being, you know, superficial or vapid — it’s just such a layered industry, and there’s so much more depth to it than I think a lot of people realize. But again, I understand why they don’t realize that, because fashion for so long has been so insular.

Rebecca
Yeah. And I guess you also maybe see more of the inside…

Natalie
Humanity of it.

Rebecca
The humanity — that’s a good point, Nat. But also, we don’t always know — isn’t it a bit like in modern art? I can see a piece, but I don’t know what is behind it. But if I read the write up on it, I go, “Oh, this is what they were doing.” So in some ways, do you get more of an inside scoop in what they were trying to do with that line… or you know what I mean, what were the themes behind it, or…?

Leah
Absolutely, yeah — absolutely. So a lot of my job is going to fashion shows, and generally when you go to a show, there are show notes. And so there are notes where the designer has talked about, like, what inspired them, you know, different references for the collection. And then I also go to a lot of what are called ‘market appointments’ in the industry, or press previews, where you’ll go to a designer showroom, or you’ll go to the showroom space at the PR firm that they work with, and someone will walk you through the collection. And through those appointments, you know, you’ll learn, like, “She took a trip to Greece, and she was, like, really inspired by, you know, the colours and the architecture, and that’s why you see all of these whites and blues and greens.” So yeah, that part is really interesting.

Natalie
You’re speaking to my soul when you’re describing standing in front of your closet and reworking all of your outfits. I used to take great pride in my heels, because I was a teacher for 20 years and part of the fun for me about being a teacher was wearing high heels, and for the first 10 years that was one of my favourite things — like, students were great, colleagues fine, but my shoes.

Rebecca
Nat, would you, like, click-click-click-click-click in the hallways?

Natalie
Oh yeah! I loved the click.

Leah
Yes!

Natalie
Like I felt so authoritative and it really, like, totally added to my story of who I was. And then I got sick — and in my sickness, one of the things that has been stripped of me and my sort of personality are my shoes. So I can’t wear most shoes anymore. Like, my feet are different now. Everything is different. I can’t wear short things, you know what I mean? Like, everything is long in pants, and long skirts, and whatever. And one can make it work, but it just means that my fashion story has changed. So when I stand in front of my closet, there’s a little bit of grief attached to who I am, and who is this new Natalie. And so the idea of the reshaping and the reworking of my clothes to fit who I am now as a 44-year-old mother who still really leans into, like, beauty, whatever that beauty is for me, is new. So I like the idea of making new out of the old. And anyways, I was like, “Ok, if Leah’s doing it, I can do it.”

Leah
Yes. What did you teach?

Natalie
I used to be an English teacher, and now I teach teachers.

Leah
Ok, so I, actually… fun story, before I was a fashion editor, I was a high school English teacher in Houston, Texas.

Natalie
Oh, that’s awesome.

Leah
10th and 11th grade. That was an interesting time in my fashion life, because I… you know, like, I’m wearing a crop top right now. I can’t do that in the classroom.

Natalie
No — no, we don’t get to.

Leah
That was not the vibe. So it was interesting. It was like, “Ok, how do I dress like a teacher, but also like myself?”

Natalie
Yeah — and what does it mean to be yourself in that space, right? I mean, like, spaces inform who we are and what we get to be.

Leah
Yeah.

Natalie
Oh man, one of the most freeing things ever has been leaving the classroom and getting to walk around the world with Bec, who’s been an artist for the last 20 years, and I’m like, “So this is what it’s like to be all free.”

Leah
Yeah.

Natalie
It’s a very different dressing up of the self, right? Oh, that’s so fascinating.

Leah
It’s very, very different. For sure.

Natalie
Ok, I have a question for you. So the industry… and since we’re talking about kind of, like, reworking and working through and reframing the work we do on ourselves — we started with Botox, moved into fashion, now here we are, with sort of the people in fashion. And the industry has been really abuzz with Law Roach leaving his career as a stylist behind.

Leah
Yeah.

Natalie
Well, you and I chatted about that the other day, and you said to me, “Actually, I wrote about more people who’ve left.” And that was like a year and a half ago, two years ago. So what’s going on, and why are people having to do the work on themselves outside of the industry? Like, why do they have to leave?

Leah
Yeah, well, I think that there’s a perception that working in fashion is just glamour, glamour, glamour 24/7. It’s just fancy clothes and air kisses and dinner parties and fashion shows.

Rebecca
That’s what I think.

Leah
Yeah. And the reality is, is that, yes, those moments exist. And yes, most of us, we enjoy them and indulge in them, and it’s fantastic. But those moments are fleeting. They’re fleeting, and when you’re not at a party, or you’re not at a fashion show, the work is really, really hard, you know — like a lot of times. And I mean, I’ve never been a stylist, so I can’t speak too much, you know, to that. I don’t have that experience. But I do know, you know, you’re dealing with multiple high profile clients, right, and your job is to make them look fantastic, but also meet their expectations, but also meet their agent’s expectations. Also do work that you yourself are proud of, and feel good about. And you are really just at the service of your clients 24/7. You’re at the service of somebody else. And you’re having to, like, broker deals with all these big fashion houses. And you’re travelling a ton — and I think that part is really, really taxing. And so yes, like, you may be at a fabulous, fabulous party in Paris, drinking champagne and eating caviar. But, like, have you slept in the past 18 hours? You know, like, did you get to read your children a book good night? There’s a lot that you miss out on when you work in fashion too, just because of the demand of the job. It’s not a nine-to-five.

And one of the women who I interviewed for Harper’s Bazaar, who had left her very high profile job as a buyer at Barney’s, she was like, “I missed my son’s birthday three years in a row because his birthday was always during Paris Fashion Week.” And she was like, “My son got pneumonia once, and I had to be in Chicago, and he was with the nanny.” And after a while, you know, people just have to make a decision of, you know, what kind of life do they want, what is healthiest for them and their family — and, you know, what is sustainable. And fashion, like many other careers, can be very unsustainable at a certain level. And I think that is what leads to, you know, a lot of people’s decisions to walk away. I mean, Law in talking about his decision too, he tragically, tragically lost his nephew, who was very young, I think — just like three years old, maybe. And he said, he was like, “I only saw him a handful of times.”

And even me, I recently was going through some text messages — I was clearing out text messages to try to get more space on my phone so I could download the update. And I was really, really, really upset by the number of text messages I saw between myself and either family or friends that was like, “I can’t do that night, work event. I’m working, can’t make it. I have this party. I have this, I have that. I have that.” And I was like, “Girl,” you know, like, “Calm down.” It’s an industry that really demands so much of you — and also being seen, and being out there, and going to all these events is very important. And so it can be hard to manage that alongside your personal life and your family life. And for me personally, I spent several years just doing everything, saying yes to everything, going to everything. For me, one huge thing that I came out of the pandemic with was just way more comfort setting those boundaries. I used to do this: if I was invited to an event and I did not have anything on my calendar, I would automatically say yes. And so that meant that pretty much I was going out, like, every night, or I was going out like three, four nights a week to different fashion events. Now, I’m like, “You know what? I will go, one, maybe two.” Maybe two weeknights, and, like, Michelle Obama needs to be there if I’m going to two — or something like that.

Natalie
On a Tuesday.

Leah
Like, right, right — it has to be. And there’s still times where I fall back into the old habit of putting too much on my schedule, but it has been really, really, really helpful in just saying like, “Just because I quote-unquote ‘don’t have anything to do’ doesn’t mean I have to be available for a work event.” And at the end of the day, even if it’s super-fabulous and fun, it’s still work. And I also think — like, this is something that I have reframed, is that I’m like, “Just because my calendar is open doesn’t mean that I’m free.” Because resting is a productive thing to do. Sitting on my couch and binge-watching Beef, that was productive. I was entertained, I laughed, I decompressed. You know, like, those are all like productive things to do for yourself. So I have definitely reframed what it means to be available, and that has been game-changing for me personally.

Rebecca
Nat was mentioning in her conversation with you that you’ve talked about sort of the loneliness sometimes that you feel in your work. Now, would you attribute that to just being a freelance writer — like, writing is a lonely profession? Or would you say that’s to do with the industry? And then how do you reframe that for yourself?

Leah
Yeah, so a few things. One, I’m a single woman and I have no children and I live by myself, so when I’m at home, I am literally alone. Also, writing for me is solitary — like, you know, for a lot of the stories that I write, yes, there’s the interview portion where you’re talking and engaging with someone, but when it comes down, it’s like, “Ok, I have to deliver 3,000 words to Vanity Fair by this day.” I have to be, like, laser-focused on that — and yes, like, sometimes I’m in a coffee shop. I’m actually best friends with the baristas in my neighbourhood now. Me and one of them literally DM each other often because that’s where I spend a lot of my time. But, you know, I’m still not, like, with my friends or with my family. So it is, and even, like, the travelling that I do, it is such a blessing.

Like, I dreamed of this career when I was young, and I feel so fortunate and so blessed to be doing it, but yeah — it’s like, “Ok, you need to go to Paris for this story.” Extremely fabulous — like, who doesn’t want to go to Paris for a story? But I’m there alone for, like, three days, you know, and there are moments, you know, you’re like, “Oh man, I wish there was, like, someone to share this croissant with,” or you know, like, “I guess I’ll go to the Louvre by myself again. Yeah, I want to order everything on the menu, but I’m by myself. So, like, I have to choose — it’s going to be the escargot, or is it going to be whatever.” So yeah, I am by myself a lot. And then also, I think it’s just more difficult for me because I am such an extrovert. I always have been my whole life — like, I like talking to people, I’m super outgoing, I literally talk to everyone. So that is a challenge. But, you know, it’s also like a means to an end, you know, and it’s also such a privilege to do this work, and so I kind of focus on the outcome, and the fact that it’s temporary, right? Like, it’s temporary — I’m going to have to be alone for a bit, but then I can go to my sister’s house and spoil my niece and nephew till no end. You know?

Natalie
Thus Wild Kratts.

Leah
Yes. I think I’ve seen every episode. Oh, my goodness.

Natalie
We all have.

Rebecca
But Leah, you seem like you have a pretty good relationship, sort of, with your own self-talk.

Natalie
Yeah. It’s beautiful to hear, actually.

Leah
It’s been a long time coming. It’s been a long time coming. I still can be, like, very, very, very hard on myself. But I think what has helped is that I am like, very self aware. I do, like, know myself very well, and I try my best to be positive — and then even when I don’t feel like being positive, I think that that’s ok, sometimes. I know there was this… another cultural conversation going on a while ago about toxic… what was it, toxic positivity?

Natalie
Toxic positivity. Yup.

Leah
Yes — right? And so, yeah, I give myself permission to be upset about things. And like, that’s ok. And I have several group chats, which I think for me are, like, fantastic. Some of them are hilarious, but they can also be a place for venting, and for, you know, feeling validated. I’ve been really, really, really blessed in my life to have really fantastic friends. I know that’s something that a lot of people don’t have, and that’s something that I don’t take for granted. And also my family, too — I try to drive that point home a lot when I’m talking about my career and how I’m able to do what I love. And I really give a lot of credit to my family for that especially — I mean, not just my parents for giving me a nice life where I could go to school, and, you know, pursue what I wanted, but also my sister. Like, I’m definitely like that cliché girl who moved to New York with no money, no plan, was completely broke, and my sister and brother-in-law took care of me, they gave me… I lived in their guest room for, like, six months, and even after I moved out, you know, my first several years in New York, they really were an extremely, extremely strong support system to me. So it has taken a village, and I’m aware of that.

Natalie
That’s really right on brand for our Reframeables ideas, because we talk a lot about the need for community-building — and what those communities look like, obviously, are going to be different based on various needs that people express. Maybe some aren’t expressed, but sort of somebody else luckily picks up on a need. But the idea that it does take a village, right? I mean, just to be wholly human, and to do that work.

Leah
Yeah.

Rebecca
To be an adult, to be a human, not just to raise a young child. It’s nice to take that phrase and apply it to…

Natalie
Us. I’m a lot of work.

Rebecca
It takes a village.

Leah
Yeah — absolutely. Same.