Rebecca
And Bec — two very different sisters who come together to reframe some of life’s big and small problems. We’re moms, writers.

Natalie
We have soft boundaries. We see the world differently, but we both lean into vulnerability — together, and with our guests. We like deep dives. So come with us, let’s reframe something.

We are reframing perfectionism with author L’Oreal Thompson Payton. Hi, L’Oreal.

L’Oreal
Hi, thanks so much for having me.

Natalie
We’re thrilled that you’re here. Ok, tell us about everything to do that is you.

L’Oreal
Everything!

Natalie
Your gigs, all the hats you wear. Ready, set, go.

L’Oreal
All the things — first and foremost, I’m a writer. I’ve been writing… gosh, I feel like since I was three. There’s, like, a picture of me and my sister sitting on the sofa, and I have a notepad in my lap and a pen in my hand, and I feel like nothing has changed since then. And so writing is near and dear. It’s what I love most. So by day, I’m health and wellness reporter for Fortune, and I feel like nights and weekends and, like, lunch breaks I’m a first time author. My book Stop Waiting for Perfect comes out this August — August 15th. I’m a mom and a wife and, like, all the things — but for me, the writing comes first and foremost.

Rebecca
Your book Stop Waiting for Perfect — it’s so interesting because I’m a lifelong sufferer of perfectionism, so I read this with interest. You bring up right away this love-hate relationship to Peloton and the blue dots.

L’Oreal
Yeah.

Rebecca
My daughter is obsessed with the Duolingo streaks — it’s interesting because perfectionism does show up really differently for each one of us, right? Because I’m not obsessed with streaks, but I definitely am a sufferer of perfectionism. So it’ll just be interesting to unpack how it shows up for us differently. But maybe, can you just talk to us about this gamification of apps, and what that did to you, and then how you realize that you were obsessed?

L’Oreal
That I have a problem — let’s just call it what it is. And it’s timely, actually, because I just lost another… I think it was, like, a 20-day streak or so — so not my longest. The one I write about in the book was after two years — like, I had gotten my Peloton bike right before the pandemic started, and honestly, it was like the saving grace for me because, you know, the world shut down and we’re home and movement has always been a form of medicine and meditation for me. Like, it’s as much about physical health as it is my mental health, and so that’s also how I think I tricked myself into being like, “No, this is a good obsession to have, because it’s ‘healthy,’ right?” — quotation marks. And what I found, what really drew me to Peloton in particular, were the blue dots, because they were essentially like the gold stars that I was so used to getting as a child — being a straight A student, getting the Perfect Attendance Award, and all of these things that grownups don’t get.

So that gamification, it held me accountable. I had good intentions when I started off — you know, like, “Because let’s work out every day.” And then as I got into it, I found ways to cheat the system and maintain my streak. I would, like, listen to meditations kind of, like, haphazardly while I was brushing my teeth, or I would, like, play, you know, a quick five minute class in the background while I was doing something else, because I wanted to maintain the streak at all costs. I even listened to one of their meditations (because they count as workouts in the app) on the way to the hospital at 3am the morning of my scheduled C section.

Natalie
Oh my gosh.

L’Oreal
That’s when I should have known that I had a problem. And then I also did, like, the guided walks up and down the hospital halls after, you know, giving birth because I am, like, not very kind to myself in that way. And I was, you know, hellbent on maintaining this streak at all costs. And then of course, one nondescript Tuesday when we had to take her to a doctor’s appointment, and there was so much more going on, and, like, Peloton was on the bottom of my to do list, I forgot. I realized, I think it was like 12:01 — like, so right after the clock resets. And I cried real tears. I’m not proud of it. But that just goes to show you the unhealthy obsession that came about. And so I had to really challenge myself — be like, “What does this mean? Am I still worthy even if I don’t have a perfect workout streak? Am I still a good person?” Because I had tied, I think, a lot of morality to this goodness of working out and being healthy and all of the things. And so it was a very hard lesson in unlearning imperfection, and one that I continue to learn. And I now, you know, have more grace for myself if I skip a day. I’m getting over a cold, as you might hear, so I hadn’t worked out the last three days. And there was a point in time where I would listen to the meditations or do something to, like, keep it going — and now I’m like, “That’s not important, and that doesn’t mean that I’m a better person if I do it or I don’t.” So you need to let that go.

Rebecca
Yeah — although I’ve been reading in other places, it seems to be something that society or culture writers are starting to think about. You know, the apps, the circle — the iPhone app circle.

L’Oreal
Oh, yeah — on the watch? Yeah.

Rebecca
Yeah, that you want it to close. And we’re so, just…

L’Oreal
Yes. Wearing it as we speak — yeah.

Rebecca
Yeah. I mean, that’s a pretty extreme version, listening on the way to give birth. Sometimes it takes those extreme moments to shake us out of what we’re doing.

Natalie
It’s interesting with my Fitbit, because I haven’t gotten to the next step of, like, the Apple Watch or whatever — I’ve just got still the old Fitbit, but I will find myself jogging on the spot to get the last 60 steps in, and I’ll show my eight-year-old, all excited to show him the little bird that flies across my bracelet when I hit my 12,000. So it’s interesting hearing somebody else’s experience of that — as you’re problematizing it, which maybe means I want to too, as opposed to celebrating it.

L’Oreal
And it’s interesting, because I went through, like, three or four different Fitbits before I was finally like, “Ok, let me just get the Apple Watch.” And the same — like, wanting to close the circles, was very hellbent on that. And there was… this past November, my family was in Hawaii after Thanksgiving, and I had hiked Diamond Head, this volcano, years ago when we went to visit, and so I was like, “I can do it again, this time with a 20 pound toddler strapped to my back.” And it’s like, Morgan Freeman narrating my life would be like, “She would soon learn that she could not do it again.” And we were, like, the last summit — so like the last set of stairs to the top of the volcano. I could see it, but I was exhausted, and we turned around and went back to the benches and I sat down. And that was hard for me because there was, again, once upon a time where I would have pushed through. I would have gone to the top because that’s what I do. I set a goal and I achieve it no matter what — no matter what that does to my mental health, my physical health, my spiritual health. And I’ve been working with a therapist who’s challenged me to ask myself — like, in times, when you find yourself in these circumstances, what would you want Violet (my daughter) to do? And I thought of that. I heard her voice as we were approaching the top, and I was just like, “I would want her to listen to her body and take a break.” So we turned around, we sat down, she was — just turned one at the time, and I told her, I was like, “Mommy’s tired. So we’re going to sit down, and we’re going to take a break, because it’s important that we listen to our bodies.” That’s, like, what I want to instill in her, and not this, like, ‘go hard or go home at all times’ kind of drive, because I know the damage that that has done to me, and I don’t want to pass that legacy of perfectionism on to her.

Rebecca
Yeah, I think that’s so interesting. Also — my daughter is also Violet.

L’Oreal
Oh, I love that for them.

Rebecca
I loved all your references to therapy, because I just had a therapist session yesterday. And it was so funny, I was telling my daughter that I was going to be busy from four to five because I was in therapy, and then she says to me… like, I was just so confused by this. She says, “Am I your therapist?”

Natalie
That’s brilliant.

Rebecca
I do not know what to make of this, because I was explaining that I was going to go to therapy, but that I wasn’t sure if I was going to keep going after this because I was working through a specific problem. And then she says, after I explain all that, “Am I your therapist?”

L’Oreal
Aww.

Rebecca
I don’t even know. So I don’t know if she thinks, like… ok, we’ll just pause right there. But anyway, I have a daughter named Violet and I like therapy.

L’Oreal
Same — we should make shirts. I like that.

Rebecca
Yeah. “I have a daughter named Violet and I like therapy.” Ok, anyway.

Natalie
“I’m problematizing who is my potential therapist” across the front of your shirt.

L’Oreal
Right, yeah. Very meta, all of it.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Natalie
Seriously, oh my goodness. Well, it’s interesting. I can relate — I actually have to question my own therapy sessions with my eight-year-old too, so I’m curious how much we’re doing in terms of, like, the passing on, right? The legacy of not just perfectionism, but even, like, how we talk to our kids. Just, like, unpacking and parsing the language we use. And so, like, I was curious, because you actually did — you went and defined how the American Psychological Association defines perfectionism. This is what you describe it as: “As a cocktail of excessively high personal standards and overly critical self-evaluations,” and that we can all understand that intellectually — as, like, thinking adults, right? But then there are these people, these little people, and then there are partners and friends and everybody who sort of, like, falls within our circle of care are also impacted by moments of or lifetime habits of perfectionism. And I’m just curious if there have been any kind of moments of pause. You’ve just described one, in terms of climbing that volcano, which is such an interesting example with a one-year-old to be able to use your words carefully. But have there been others that have really struck you in terms of, like, “Oh my gosh, this needs to get checked,” in terms of, like, its impact on others?

L’Oreal
Even the process of writing the book — and it’s so ironic, because literally the title is Stop Waiting for Perfect. But I found that writing it, this book, was like a masterclass in unlearning perfectionism. And then the fact that writing it coincided with the birth of my daughter, and so it was like I was getting it from both sides, right? Like, professionally, and then personally, this confrontation that I never had to face before with my own perfection, because I didn’t know any other way — like I said before, straight A student, perfect attendance. And it wasn’t like my parents put that pressure on me. I distinctly remember when I got, like, a B or something, and I was upset, and my mom told me then, you know, in grade school, “You put too much pressure on yourself.” But I wanted the awards, I wanted the gold stars, I wanted all of these things. And I saw the rewards that came with them, the grades, and the certificates, and everything else — getting into the college that I wanted, and getting jobs, and everything like that. Like, my perfectionism was always rewarded.

And then comes parenting, and perfection and parenting don’t go together at all. And so that was a real big slap in the face. You can have a plan, and then the baby’s like, “Meh.” Or even, like, pregnancy — getting pregnant, right, we had to deal with IVF when we experienced infertility, and so there was like, “I have a plan,” and then life happens and it’s like, “Haha, guess what?” And then writing the book, it was like in my head, I’m going to write this at the coffee shop with my oat milk latte, and the lo-fi playlist in the background, and if I had waited for those perfect moments to write the book, they would have never happened, because perfection doesn’t exist. And it’s like, I know this intellectually, I know that first drafts are not meant to be perfect, right? Like, Anne Lamott calls them “shitty first drafts” for a reason. And yet, I was holding myself to this super high standard, because I feel like I always have something to prove. Especially as a black woman in America, there’s this, you know, ‘working twice as hard to get half as much.’ So I can’t come with some half-assed first draft, right? Like, it has to be perfect upon submission for them to take me seriously as a first-time author so that I have an opportunity to write more books. And also for other black women writers who are coming after me, there’s a lot of pressure that I continue to put on myself that I realize is unhealthy.

And so I’m learning that because of therapy, but it’s practice, and that’s what I’m learning — like, there will be falls and stumbles, there’s moments that I catch myself. So even the purpose of the book — like, it started as a book about how to overcome impostor syndrome, which then was kind of like, “Haha, who am I to tell people when it’s something that I experience on the regular as well?” But I think now what I’ve learned is that there’s not a such thing as overcoming impostor syndrome and perfectionism and self-doubt — like, they’re all closely related first cousins. The goal of this book and the tips that I share with readers is to shorten that spiral, because I’m someone who can spiral very quickly. Just, like, at the drop of a dime. I have my anxiety spray right next to me on my desk at all times, like, in case of emergency or, you know, anxiety.

So just finding these tools to help shrink that time, that cycle, that spiral that can sometimes be onset by perfectionism and impostor syndrome and self-doubt, and knowing that I’m not meant to do this perfectly — there will be times that I stumble. But it’s important that I have a toolkit, essentially, and the support and people around me to help pick me up when I’m down and keep going. Because it’s very easy to just kind of like, “Oh, well, I didn’t get it right.” Or, “I didn’t get that job. I didn’t get this internship,” whatever it might be, and just kind of, like, count yourself out. But it’s important — you know, throw yourself a pity party, of course. I love a good pity party. But then you’ve got to throw yourself back in the ring and try again, and if you didn’t do it perfectly, that’s ok. That’s not the point. Perfection doesn’t exist. And it’s like, we all know this, but now we need to start living it.

Rebecca
Yeah. I like that the idea of the goal is to just help people shorten their spiral, because it’s false to say that we can stop these spirals. Maybe some of us realize that easier than others. Some of us need the constant reminders. But are we not interested in where it comes from? I mean, this perfectionism — I mean, you bring up in the book, being a black woman in America, that you feel this pressure. I feel it as a white woman. I feel it’s more of a problem for women in general. Do we think that? I mean, I can see it in my mom. Like, it’s so interesting (sorry, mom) — like, for instance, she’s trying yoga right now, and she finds it so challenging, and she keeps bringing up that she knows she doesn’t look graceful when she does it. And she’ll bring up what she’s really good at is the piano. And she’s really struggled in her life with wanting to do the things that she’s good at. And I relate to that so hard — just that I don’t see that struggle the same way in my husband. And I don’t know if that’s the white man syndrome — like, that you bring up too. I mean, it probably exists in him, but not to the same degree that it exists in me — like, I just beat myself up when I make a mothering mistake, or, you know, I think about how I can’t get meal plans organized. Like, just that I can’t find balance, and is it going to take me my whole life to figure this out? And it’s just, I don’t know, what’s the deal? Like, I want to blame my parents, my mom, but that’s not fair. Like, why does she bear the burden of that? But it seems to be a struggle that women in particular face.

L’Oreal
Oh, absolutely. I 100% inherited my mom’s perfectionism, and she’s a Virgo, so I feel like it’s, like, heightened. And it’s just… there’s so many reasons, right? There’s condition — like, before we exit the womb even, it’s like, “Oh, you’re having a girl?” And I’m very cognizant of not, you know, priding people in being like, “Oh, you know, what a good girl,” or like those sorts of things that I’m just like, “Mm-mm, no, we’re nipping this in the bud right now.” I don’t care if she’s only 28 months, I don’t want to have that be the thing that she, like, aspires to, because that was me — that still is me a bit, right? To be good, to be obedient, to be the good daughter, the good wife, the good mom — don’t even get me started there, because there were plenty of tears. And that’s actually why I switched therapists. I had, like, I don’t know that it’s called a regular one, but I switched to someone who specializes in postpartum depression and anxiety because when I combined that need for perfectionism and to be considered a good mom, it was too much. The hormones, everything, was like… it was a very dangerous cocktail. And so she has been very helpful with me in, like, talking me down with that.

And it’s interesting, yeah, where it comes from, because I can see my mom, like, if she makes a mistake or something — like, we were just on family vacation, and she happened to burn the hamburgers because the grill was too hot. No big deal, but was, like, very upset and wanted to go to the market. And it was just like, “Well, my sister is already at the market, let’s just call her and have her do it,” like… and I saw it in real time. I was like, “Oh, this is where I get it from.” But I am doing the work (the very messy work) in therapy and having conversations like this. And being vulnerable and talking openly about it I think is a luxury that previous generations did not have, and so they’re less willing to a) admit, you know, the mistakes — want to keep up the facade of perfection, because that was rewarded for them. And that was how they got ahead, especially as black people in America for my family. And so I understand why. And I’m choosing to do things differently now for myself, and then my daughter, so that we can disrupt that cycle, and just have her, like, live her best life and not have, you know, to do it perfectly.

Like with your mom, I think — because same, I got frustrated with yoga at first when I started doing it, because it’s like, “Why am I not getting this? This is too slow.” I’m used to, you know, like, something fast-paced and what I love actually with Peloton and Dr. Chelsea Jackson Roberts — who is amazing, she’s like the Beyoncé of yoga, but she teaches a lot about slowing down and about how yoga is a practice. That’s what it is: it’s a practice. It’s not meant to be perfect. And in my own studies and becoming a certified yoga teacher, I’ve learned how, like, the asanas or the postures that we are so conditioned to do in Western society is a very small part of what yoga actually is. It’s so much more than that. It’s your breath, it’s your movement, it’s your mind, it’s all of these things. But we have a very singular focus on, “Is my downward dog correct?” You know, “Is my posture this and that?” And that kind of, like, skews the whole meaning — the greater significance of it gets lost in that. And so that’s another, you know, being present instead of being perfect. Like, when I’m on the mat — like I, for a while, wouldn’t do Chelsea’s Sunday morning yoga classes because toddler, right? Like, she’s climbing all over me. But now I’m getting her involved in it, and I mean, we have to take bubble breaks, and sometimes she needs a snack or we need to read a book, but that is still yoga. It’s not perfect, it’s not the yoga that I did before where it was all quiet and serene and you know — it’s a little messy and chaotic. But that is still yoga. I’m still showing up and I’m modelling for my daughter this self-care, that it’s important that we take this time to love our bodies and be in our bodies.

Rebecca
And now, some housekeeping. Hey Reframeables: do you get something from these conversations? Would you consider becoming a supporter on Patreon? For as little as $2 a month, you could help to keep this show going. It’s meaningful financially, and relationally — it feels like a hug. For our Patreon supporters, we do mini-episodes which we call Life Hacks and Enhancers — our five best things in a week. You could also tip us on our Ko-fi account, where Natalie’s recipe book is also for sale. Oh, and tell us what you want to hear more of — listener messages make our week. And don’t forget to subscribe to our newsletter. All the links are in our show notes. Love, Nat and Bec.

Natalie
Thinking of therapy, and even just the idea of a practice, like the ongoingness of a practice, I loved the moment in the book (it’s early on, so when people get it, they’ll find it, they’ll find this little moment) where you, like, pause and say, “Ok, if you need to look up this reference to Iyanla Vanzant,” and you’re like, “I’ll just take a second, I’m going to look at my Apple Watch while you go Google it, and then you can come back.” And I was like, “Yeah, I’m an insider,” because I knew the reference because I had been teaching a play to a bunch of my grade 12s years ago, and her name appears — in an Amanda Parris play, for Canadian listeners who love the CBC. Like, she had written this character as going through her own sort of spiritual practice of affirmations, and that was who she was using as kind of her guide. So anyways, I knew it, but the kids at the time in my class didn’t know the reference, and so they essentially did what you told me to do, which was to go look it up. So we all had this, like, little learning moment. And I guess it sort of prompted me to ponder, like with the book itself, is there a feeling that you’re trying to write into this text where you’re wanting people to feel like insiders — like an intimacy in terms of their readerly conversation with you as they maneuver through this ongoing practice of growth?

L’Oreal
Absolutely. I mean, in everything that I write — my newsletters, my freelance work, my work at Fortune, especially if they’re personal essays, I always strive for it to have this conversational tone, like we’re in a café, chilling with your best friend over lattes or mimosas. I write very clearly with my ideal reader in mind, who happens to be my friends, right? I think of my friends Stephanie and Ciara especially as these… not like avatars, because they’re real people, but just kind of like: they’re ambitious, and they’re successful, and they’re millennials, and that’s like the Iyanla reference. I love pop culture. I love a good pop culture reference. I am an elder millennial, those are throughout the book, and it’s just meant to be, you know, like, peer to peer. This is not a, “I have it all figured out, and so I’m giving you all of this guidance and directions, and follow me because I’m amazing.” It’s like, “No, I’m in this with you — like, I am in the trenches, and I’m not pretending to have it all figured out.” I’m just sharing what has worked for me so far, and inviting you on the journey as well and cheering you on as you go and find yourself and what version, like, works for you.

That is my hope — that this book, you know, people will reference for years and years to come, will come back to it when they need a pep talk before a big job interview or speaking engagement or launching, you know, their own podcast or book or something else that has them feeling really nervous to take that step outside of their comfort zone. But we all know that that’s where the magic is. It’s very super uncomfortable, right? Now, like, waiting for this book to come out, and I’m so anxious because it’s been in my head since 2015. I’d started working on it in earnest in 2017 with a book proposal, and then writing it the last two years — it’s been with me for a very long time. And it’s, like, similar — I know everyone equates it to giving birth to a tiny human, and I imagine it’ll be the same way, that this thing that has been so near and dear is now out in the world. And once it’s out in the world, you can’t really control it, right? Like, you can’t protect it, and it’s out there and it’s open to interpretation of other people. And that’s my hope: is that it will just serve as this resource, this pocket-size pep talk and just, you know, something to help guide people through those difficult times, that they’ll come to time and time again, that they’ll pass on to their friends when they’re going through something as well, and that they will also laugh at my pop culture insider references.

Rebecca
Let’s discuss how success is not linear. Because I know that — that’s another one that I know cerebrally, but it’s hard to feel it. Like I think, “Ok, 42, I don’t want to need more down. I want straight up from here.” So, I don’t know, let’s just talk about that, L’Oreal. Tell me something about that. That’s a hard one.

L’Oreal
Yeah, and I know that, like, Lean In the book now has kind of this bad rep. And at the time, in 2013 when I read it for the first time, it was this sort of, like, a-ha moment for me in reading Sheryl Sandberg’s book, and she talks about the kind of jungle gym of your careers — because being in journalism especially, there is a masthead, there is a very clear trajectory of what your career will look like. And I was on that path, right? I started as a reporter, then I moved up to assistant editor, then I dabbled in, you know, some leading writing and freelance writing and other things for newspapers and other outlets, but I was always like, “Editor-in-chief or bust.” That had been my dream job since I was in middle school, because I subscribed to all the teen magazines and I was obsessed — like, we talked about the Peloton obsession, the teen mag obsession back in the late 90s, early 2000s was very real, and Black Girl Magic wasn’t trending, Michelle Obama wasn’t first lady, Beyoncé was still in Destiny’s Child, so there weren’t the representations there are now as far as, you know, like, black women in power, black women in media, and I felt I didn’t see myself represented in those pages.

So that’s why I realized, “Hey, I’m good at writing and I like this. I also like teen magazines. What if I put two together and try to be the change I want to see in the world?” Right? That made sense in my middle school brain, and I literally did everything around that. The high school that I went to, becoming editor-in-chief of my student newspaper, and then when I was in college, all the internships that I did — even one at a teen magazine. Got an offer, but it was rescinded because of the economy — thanks a lot, 2008. So it was just: I was on that track, I was climbing the masthead. And when I read that book, it had me rethink what success looks like. Because in my head, there was this ladder and you climb it. And the goal is to get to the top. But then later that year, I moved to Chicago, I started working at Jet. I feel like the closer I got to the top, I was able to see people who are at the top, I realize the editor-in-chief actually isn’t doing all that much writing. Like, they’re in business meetings all day, and that sounds boring. So, like, what does that mean for me when all I want to do, all I’ve ever wanted to do is write?

And so there was a lot that happened in the years following — the Black Lives Matter movement, and that kind of was this reckoning for me in 2015 because I was like, the reason I mentioned I got into journalism in the first place was to help young black girls. Like, that’s what I wanted to do, and I felt like I wasn’t doing that. And I was just being very drained by covering different police shootings every day. I was burnt out, but I didn’t know it because I didn’t have the language, right? Like, it wasn’t a thing then like it is now. I wasn’t in therapy, I didn’t have a self-care routine. So I didn’t have any of those tools in the toolkit to help bolster me when I was dealing, you know, with reporting on a different name, a different city, but it’s the same story, essentially, that continues today, unfortunately.

And so I took myself out of it. I did about five years in nonprofit PR at Girl Scouts and then an education nonprofit, but I was still writing. I was always freelancing alongside of it, I had my newsletter. But I started to think about my own definition of success. And I think about that Maya Angelou quote where she says, like, “Success is liking yourself and liking what you do and liking how you do it.” Can I say yes to all of those things? If not, then even if this job looks good on paper, does that mean that I’m successful? Does that mean that I am happy? And I pivoted during the pandemic, as a lot of people did — the great resignation, I left the education nonprofit PR job, went back into full-time freelancing and eventually landed at Fortune. But it’s interesting because at the same time, I was interviewing for my current role, I was interviewing for a managing editor position at another organization, and had to really have this, like, come to Jesus moment with myself about, like, do I want to get back in and climb that masthead and get to the top, or do I want to do what my heart’s calling is, and what I know I’ve been put on this earth to do, which is wrote? And even if that doesn’t seem as successful, right, to some people to be like, “Oh, just a reporter,” or, you know, something like that, compared to the titles, the managing editor, the senior editors, the editor-in-chief, and I chose writing. And even if that doesn’t look like someone else’s version of success, it is for me, but there’s been lots of ups and downs.

Like I said, I left the industry altogether and came back, and I think that jungle gym mentality of my career, thanks to Lean In and Sheryl Sandberg and reading that back in 2013, gave me permission to experiment and see what else is out there, what else do I enjoy, rather than committing to: I have to climb this ladder, and you know, like, go all the way to the top because the top doesn’t always seem so fun, right? Like, I look at it and I’m just like, “Ok, I know I don’t want to be in the meetings, I don’t want to be responsible for, you know, people’s salaries, and making hard decisions, and all of those things. I want to write and I want to help people.” And I’m very grateful that I get to do that every day.

Natalie
It is interesting thinking about that idea of, like, what does success mean to me? I mean, every Maya Angelou quote is going to be a good quote, but that’s an especially good one, in terms of having to check in — like, the idea of checking in with the self. Because as Becca and I do our work outside of the podcast, in terms of writing and production and creation, we have each other to check in with in terms of like, is this next project going to not just be a success, but be part of our own growth process. And it is fatiguing to keep growing, because at a certain point it’s like, “Haven’t I done enough?”

L’Oreal
Right.

Natalie
I’m the elder in this little trio of ours here right now, folks, and I feel like I’ve done a fuckload of growing, so I sort of want to go, “At a certain point, I would just like to rest.” And at the same time, “Do I actually want to rest?” is a big question that I have to ask myself, because I’m constantly going after the next big idea that we can all create together. So that makes me ponder a little bit about kind of the idea of community, and Rebecca texted me as we were sort of reading your book and she’s like, “Nat, I really think that L’Oreal and you have a similar community focus,” — in terms of the way that you see the work you do on the page. And that certainly has always been like that for me in terms of community-building in education. So is that the heart of what you’re going after here? I mean, you’ve said it — you’re working to be writing for young black girls to have this model to reach towards. But where is the community for you in it all, as well?

L’Oreal
Yeah, it’s such a great question, because I’ve pondered this before, actually. My friend who’s writing my bio, because I don’t know what it is about writers that we can’t write our own bio, but I was like, “Help me.” And she asked a really great question that I can’t remember exactly, but it was kind of along the lines of, like, “What or who are you doing this for? What do you get out of this?” And I admitted that first and foremost it’s pretty selfish, right — like, writing for me is very cathartic. So even before there was the public-facing writing, in my student columns and everything else, I’d love journaling. Because there’s a lot of things going on in this brain at all times — like, my computer has 20 tabs open at all times, my head has about, like, 50. And so my journal is a safe place that’s just mine, because what I do by being a journalist and an author out there is a lot of public-facing writing. A lot of it is open to public consumption, but the journal is my place. It’s kind of where I process it all, dump it out, and then from there, there are actual essays and parts of the book that I’ve written that have come from my journal. I pull from that.

And the idea is to just share — for me, get it out there. And also, in doing so, help others. I think back to high school, I was editor-in-chief of my student newspaper, and wrote a column about body positivity (it wasn’t called that back then of course, it was, like, 2004). But you know, just this idea of self-esteem and body confidence and everything like that. And having my classmates, I went to an all-girl Catholic high school, and they were just like, “Oh my gosh, me too. Thanks for sharing this, I really appreciate it.” And from then on, it’s been like, “Ok, clearly I have a gift. And I also have a platform. And it’s very important for me to use them both wisely, but also call people in and sometimes share the things that people aren’t talking about openly.”

Black women and infertility, of course, lot of people are talking about it now, and obviously black maternal health and everything along those lines. And when I started to share our fertility journey, I didn’t see a lot of representation. And I know if I’m going through this, somebody else has to as well. And so in what I’m writing, it’s to share — just for me to get it out there. And like I said, very cathartic process, but also the community. I mean, I just wrote this morning’s newsletter, it was about still trying to learn to love my postpartum body. Like, we’re 20 months postpartum, and I’m still kind of like, “Oh.” You know, like, some days are better than others. And I hesitated to write about it, because I’m like, “Oh my gosh, my readers are gonna get so sick of me talking about this.” And I was checking my inbox right before this call. And there was about five other moms who responded and were like, “Thank you for saying this.” No one talks about what it looks like, you know, almost two years postpartum, and, like, the feelings and everything that come along with it.

And so I’ve kind of made this career more or less about saying the thing that… or like, what is it people say? Like, “Saying the quiet part out loud.” I’m, like, writing the quiet part out loud — and in doing that, inviting other people in. I mean, the story I still get the most comments about and DMs and emails I wrote for Self a few years ago — actually, right before we got our positive pregnancy test about the multiple failed IVF cycles that we had gone through. And I can imagine what led someone to that story, you know? It’s 2am, you just had another failed cycle, you’re feeling very alone and frustrated, angry, all of the things. So you turn to Google, as one does, and my article pops up, and they’re like, “Oh, ok,” — because I also feel like no one talks about, “Hey, IVF isn’t this, like, magic solution.” It’s not perfect. It can still fail. No one warned me about that. So that was a whole thing. And then they read it, and naturally, because we’re humans who are curious, they Google me, or they find me on Instagram, and they see Violet and they’re like, “Oh my gosh,” — like, “It happened. You didn’t give up. You persevered, and this has given me so much hope.” That’s why I do what I do — is to help others, especially in those dark moments where they feel alone. To know that there’s someone else out there who gets it, and is just rallying around them — and not in a (like I said before), “I have all the answers, follow me, I know the way,” but like, “I’m in this with you, and I know how much it sucks. But we’re in this together, and so you don’t have to ever worry about being alone.”

Rebecca
So you’re being this positive, vulnerable force on the internet, which is very different from (and you mention this), like, “The best 30 under 30.” Those kinds of scam lists. Aren’t they the worst?

L’Oreal
Listen, many therapy sessions were spent on the 30 under 30 lists before I learned that it’s either, like, who you know, there’s some where you can pay to get on, and then it was just like, “Well, forget it.” And I’m not even aspiring to 40 under 40 now. If it happens, great, but I’m not putting my personal value, and what I am worth and what my work is worth, on to a list that is half made-up anyway.

Rebecca
Yeah, we have to remember that so many of these things are… just made-up shit.

Natalie
Yeah. I like that. “It’s all made-up shit.” It’s like that.

L’Oreal
It’s like that… was it on Whose Line Is It Anyway? “The points are made-up and they don’t matter,” or something like that. That’s what I think about.

Natalie
Yeah yeah yeah, that’s so true. You also say that courage is a muscle that gets stronger as we use it, right? How do you flex that muscle?

L’Oreal
Saying yes to things that scare me. Releasing a book. Yeah, like, it’s that stepping out of that comfort zone, I had my sweet spot, right? Like, I love, you know, doing podcast interviews and other kind of, like, low key things. And I know that this book is going to require me to step out of that comfort zone, but it’s necessary, and I just also think about modelling that courage and confidence. Because I think confidence is also a muscle, and the more we use it — so of course, the first podcast interview I ever did, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is gonna be terrifying.” And yet here I am today with a mic, and we’re having a great conversation. So it’s, you know, again, we’re focusing on that practice not perfection, and showing my daughter and, like, my friends and other people who think, “Well, I can’t do that.” Yes, you can. You can. It may be hard, you know, challenging, and there will be sticky spots. But you can work your way through them. And you have to give yourself grace in that process. Because, like I said, muscle, using exercise, yoga — it’s not perfect, none of that. And the goal is not perfection, or it shouldn’t be. And so I think we just have to remember that it’s all practice. Everyday is practice, and how lucky are we that we get an opportunity to practice what that looks like?

Rebecca
There’s a whole chapter in the book about negative self-talk, and have you flexed that muscle too in terms of positive self-talk? Because I found it interesting. Last night, I went to bed and I Googled that self-compassion survey. And I just, you know, I answered the questions, then I went, “Oh, major fail. I’m going to sleep now.” I have a major failing grade on that self-compassion test. But you have obviously practiced that muscle — like, worked that muscle to speak to yourself in a more loving way. And does it work as you practice?

L’Oreal
It ebbs and flows, right? There are seasons where I’m really good at it, and I’m in the flow. Like this morning, I did my yoga, I did my meditation, and had Beyoncé playing in the shower — and, like, life is good. Now, earlier this week when I was in bed, because I was sick, and I was really like, “Uhh…,” those things — it’s learning to be in the season that I’m in. And that moment that I’m in is also being compassionate towards yourself. I remember taking that assessment at my very first therapy appointment and getting a failing grade as well — I think it was like 2.5 out of 10 or something. Their therapy speak was like, “What I’m hearing is that you’re not very kind to yourself,” and it’s like, “Well, no shit Sherlock. That’s why I’m here.”

Natalie
Paying you.

L’Oreal
Yeah — I was like, “Help me.” But I think a lot about: what would I say to a friend, right? We’re often much kinder to our friends than we are to ourselves. Our family members, I think about my sister, I think about my daughter — would I say this to her? Would I want her to say it to herself? Why am I saying it to me, then? And then I’ve kind of adopted this third person pep talk when I need it, but I’ll be like, “Pull it together, Payton.” Or like, I listen to Beyoncé when I need to really hype myself up — you know, like, listen to Formation, or Diva, or just, you know, the whole Homecoming soundtrack. Like those little tips and tricks to pull me out of that negativity, that negative self-talk, because it can become very loud. We are the voice we listen to most often, and so you’ve got to squish it down when it pops up. Because it will, and, you know, it’s human nature. Again, the goal isn’t to get rid of it entirely (although that’s great, and if anyone has any tips on how to do that, let me know) but to moreso make it a little bit quieter, a little bit softer, and kind of tuck it away in the corner over there so that it doesn’t have your full time and attention.

Rebecca
Yeah, I like that. And actually, it’s funny. You mentioned writing yourself a letter.

L’Oreal
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca
My therapist said that to me yesterday, and I was like, “That’s so cheesy — but fine.” I know.

L’Oreal
It is — it’s very cheesy. I’ve had people do it, and it’s very liberating. And then also to read them at, like, workshops that I’ve done. And it’s just like a good ‘fuck you’ to that inner critic, right? Like, in a very public acknowledgement of it as well. So there’s that accountability piece to it. And I think, yeah, like a lot of these things, they’re cliché and they’re cheesy and it’s just like, “Ugh,” but then you do it and you’re like, “Ok, actually, that wasn’t so bad.”

Rebecca
“That was kind of useful.”

L’Oreal
Yeah.

Natalie
My husband has always — and I’ve shared this on here before, his comment. We came together after other marriages. So we came together as a second marriage, and I have been very critical of parts of myself from my past. And his comment is always like, “Natalie, put an arm around younger Natalie, and just, like, love her.” And it’s funny because it’s a really beautiful thought and it’s a great tool — but actually, I kind of like the idea of the ‘fuck you’ to another Natalie too, because maybe it’s never just the one.

L’Oreal
Yeah.

Natalie
Right? Like, we are multitudes.

L’Oreal
Yes.

Natalie
So if there are a few Natalies to kind of, like, be in conversation with via a letter or just kind of like those internal tool moments, I could be putting an arm around the one who was hurt, but I could also be like, “You — get in a corner.”

L’Oreal
Yeah. “You’re in time out.”

Natalie
To the other one — just, “You’re going on time out forever.”

L’Oreal
“Go sit over there, snarky Natalie.” Yeah.

Natalie
Exactly, because there’s something in that, right — like acknowledging that the multitudes that we are now are also, like, brought forward from what we were, and that they sort of journey with us along the path until we’re doing yoga classes like our moms.

Rebecca
It’s as simple as that in a way, isn’t it? It’s weird. It’s like we want it to be more glamorous, but it’s just… I mean, you say in the book, it’s just life is hard.

Natalie
Do the work.

Rebecca
Gotta stay on the road.