Rebecca
Hey Nat.

Natalie
Hey Bec.

Rebecca
Welcome to Sister On!, Nat.

Natalie
Welcome to Sister On!, unscripted.

Rebecca
We’re making this a special episode, unscripted. Although I said “Unscripted” to Simon, he’s like, “Well, what are your other episodes? Those are scripted?”

Natalie
Well, I guess they’re curated in that we have to do some thinking beforehand. We can’t just come and shoot the shit for nothing.

Rebecca
People do though, I think. That is a form of podcast. I’ll just say, he gets an unscripted vibe from us. So this is Sister On!, unscripted unscripted.

Natalie
Yeah, like unscripted 2.0. This is the real deal. We’re testing ourselves. This is a moment of test.

Rebecca
A fun little nugget surprise episode where we each bring one problem to reframe.

Natalie
Yeah. That you don’t know about.

Rebecca
Are we touching our noses because we’re saying the same thing?

Natalie
Yes. Practically.

Rebecca
Do only old people do that, touch their nose? Because remember when I brought that up with Elsie the other day, she gave me that look, like “You’re so old that you think people touch their noses when they say the same thing?”

Natalie
It could be dated. I don’t know, though.

Rebecca
Did that happen 20 years ago?

Natalie
Yeah, totally. Or like, you punch-bugging somebody?

Rebecca
“Punch-buggy, no feedback?” What was…?

Natalie
No punchback.

Rebecca
It wasn’t “No feedback?!”

Natalie
There might have been feedback.

Rebecca
What did you say, again?

Natalie
Punch-buggy, no punchbacks. I think really it was just like, if you’re sitting in a car and you saw an old punch buggy. That’s really what it was. But I remember that when I was in grade four, my friends also used it as: if you said the same thing at the same time.

Rebecca
Ok, I also thought of something when I was walking over here, I wanted to tell you — that I realized how we were talking about how you are a rebel in some ways, and how you don’t like to conform. Is it that you don’t like to conform to cultural references? Is it cultural reference if someone says, “Oh, you should…?” Like Esther Perel — you’re like, “Oh, I’m not going to listen to Esther Perel, even if she might be excellent, because everyone else is listening to Esther Perel.” So that’s like a nonconformity, but what is that?

Natalie
I think I want to discover her myself, is what it is.

Rebecca
You just want to be meandering down a path…

Natalie
And come across her, and be like, “Oh, Esther Perel.”

Rebecca
As opposed to the good advice of your sister saying, “Go listen to Esther Perel.”

Natalie
No, you know what, if you say it to me, I’m a little more inclined. I have yet to do it, but I did try and check out Brené Brown on one of my drives home this week. That’s only because of you. I didn’t find her.

Rebecca
And did you like her? You didn’t find Brené Brown — ok!

Natalie
In my Apple Podcasts on Jane Street, I’m at a stoplight, everything didn’t happen. So I ended up with something called Wisdoms. Anyways, it seemed to be linked in with the search for Brené Brown.

Rebecca
Although you got something good out of that, I thought.

Natalie
Yeah, it was reasonable. I don’t remember now what it was, but it was at the time completely reasonable.

Rebecca
I think Brené Brown might be on Spotify.

Natalie
Ok, I’ll look there. See, I’m willing.

Rebecca
Maybe. She might have a particular deal with them. Thank you for being so open.

Natalie
Openness, hm. I think that my nonconformity piece is like: I just don’t want to feel obligated to be interested in something, simply because everybody else is. I do want it to fit whatever my headspace is at that time.

Rebecca
Right. Ok, that’s fair.

Natalie
Maybe that’s in there. I don’t know.

Rebecca
I was thinking about that because one place where I feel this sense of nonconformity is in my mothering. For example, it’s Halloween today. I noticed some chat groups going back and forth, and lots of moms looking for spare pumpkins — because they wanted to be carving pumpkins because it’s Halloween. I have zero desire or need to be carving pumpkins right now. We have pumpkins, actually, because we got some pumpkins from our farm.

Natalie
Right. Which is cool, because you grew that.

Rebecca
Pumpkins that fucking grew!

Natalie
You planted those seeds, and now they’re a real thing.

Rebecca
Yeah. I’m like, “No, I don’t need to do that on Halloween day, to be carving pumpkins.” That just feels like another thing on my list that I have to do and provide. But I also said — leaving the house today, coming over here — I said to Simon, “We should have another baby!” I know I say this all the time, but I think it’s because I have this duel happening inside me where I’m like, “If I just had one more baby, I could get to practice conformity.” I would try, on this last one, to carve pumpkins on Halloween. This would be the child with whom I would conform. I would do all the things in the way they’re supposed to be done.

Natalie
And yet, you’re also saying that that is an area of rebellion for you. So it is a duality.

Rebecca
Yeah. I sense both. A lot of anxiety in here, or just fighting.

Natalie
It’s like a battle.

Rebecca
Parts of me that really battle.

Natalie
Which is cool — that you can name that.

Rebecca
Years ago, with Elsie, I had a mothering blog that I started. It was right at the moment that one should have been blogging, if you really wanted to do well with blogging, because it was early. And then I wouldn’t ever just let myself be a mom blogger. I always resisted it, so I would talk about all the things that you experience if you’re nurturing a child — but then I would fight. I didn’t want to just be talking about my mothering, because I’m more than a mother. So it’s always this fight. This isn’t even my problem to reframe, Nat. This is just an opener.

Natalie
Just thinking of the Halloween thing, let me start there. I have never been super-excited about Halloween. That’s never been my thing, and that’s hard as a teacher, because schools get really into it. You know, if you’re a teacher and you don’t dress up, then you’re the boring one who didn’t participate.

Rebecca
Did you dress up this year?

Natalie
Well, I did it out of obligation. I was a letter N because my friend signed me up for the letter. She said, “Are you going to do this? Are you going to be part of the teacher Scrabble / Words with Friends kind of game?” and I’m like, “Fine, sign me up.” So she signed me up for my name. She helped me to be a good teacher in that respect, but I wouldn’t have chosen it on my own.

Rebecca
Was she the letter T?

Natalie
She was. I was part of the word ‘in’ — I forget what she was a part of, she might have been part of ‘the.’

Rebecca
So did you have to get in line together and take a picture?

Natalie
Yeah, we had to take a picture of the whole thing. But then, of course, there was a really lovely email at the end from the teacher who organizes all that, and how much she appreciated all of our work. So there was definitely appreciation for participation, and I can totally get behind that, because it takes effort to have that kind of spirit. But it doesn’t take effort around my home, because I don’t have to do any of it — Clifford and Frankie are so excited about this.

Rebecca
They’re bonkers for Halloween.

Natalie
Bonkers, oh my goodness. Two years ago, before the pandemic, we went to Home Depot around Halloween time. Frankie used to love going in there. I have a picture of you and Frankie, squatted down, posing in front of tractors — because Frankie used to love going to the Home Depot parking lot and just looking at all the machines. So cute.

Rebecca
I remember that.

Natalie
So he used to love the Halloween displays. He would go in and touch all the buttons, and anyways, we got this crazy skeleton soldier guy for like 75% off, and I was not having it. I was actually putting my foot down, “No, this is crazy, this is too much.” But looking at their faces, they were just: “Please, please, can we just do this?” And Clifford’s like, “It’s 75% off.” So Frankie’s like, “It’s a sale!”

Rebecca
How much was it, was it like, 200 bucks at 75% off?

Natalie
No — so it would have been 200 bucks, and then 75% off that. So it was reasonable.

Rebecca
That’s what I mean. But this is an investment of a decoration.

Natalie
Yes. We have to store it in a closet, it’s a whole thing. But they get so excited because you press it and it makes a big sound, and the whole neighborhood walks past and goes, “Ooh!” So you feel like you’re doing something for the spirit of the crew around here. But not only that, Clifford and Frankie actually decorated. We have a neighbor, he’s a bit of a recluse and he does his own thing, but Clifford sort of takes care of him — so he’ll mow his lawn and do these things. Anyways, Clifford decorated his front lawn and porch, and Frankie decorated ours. And then yesterday, I come home and I see all this candy laid out on our kitchen counter, and it’s because this neighbor has come over and awkwardly handed all of these Shoppers Drug Mart bags over and said, “For the kids. It’s for the kids.” And then he runs away! Again, it’s like the spirit of something here that is happening, that I’m not needing to be a part of, but they love it.

So I asked Clifford, “Why is Halloween such a big thing for you?” Because obviously Frankie’s just picking up on all that excitement. It’s not just school. And Clifford was saying that in England, when he was growing up, Halloween may have existed — it was on people’s radar — but it wasn’t real. You might, as a kid, go to people’s doors and knock and say trick-or-treat. But most people didn’t have anything. They were like, “I don’t have anything, sorry” — or “Here’s an apple.” It was that kind of thing. He also said that lots of people did tricks, and they weren’t nice. Whereas the real festival that they would celebrate was Bonfire Night, which was on November 1st. So really, Halloween was a non-thing. So when he came 11 years ago (or whatever it is, 12 years ago?), that was a fun-spirited community-type thing that he got into because he was just recognizing that’s what this was about.

Rebecca
Which he felt that he didn’t have.

Natalie
Yeah, and I don’t think that that was ever on my radar to not like, except as a teacher — I didn’t like feeling forced to do something. But now I’m watching somebody else’s excitement, I’ve kind of got into it. So I don’t do any of the work, really — I don’t carve the pumpkin — but I’ll be around for it. They want me there.

Rebecca
But Clifford really appreciates the community aspect of it.

Natalie
Yes. That’s totally what it is for him.

Rebecca
Why are Simon and I so curmudgeonly about it? I don’t know, I need to get Simon. What’s wrong with us?

Natalie
But maybe it doesn’t feel like community — maybe it just feels like work. That could be what it comes down to.

Rebecca
Our stream has always been a bit problematic when it comes to community. It’s never been quite clear for us.

Natalie
Is it happening or not, like that kind of thing?

Rebecca
Are we being community? I don’t know.

Natalie
So there’s Halloween. Happy Halloween! You can take some of Roger’s candy home with you, if you need, because I will extend my community, here on our street, to yours. Maybe that’s what you need.

Rebecca
Yeah. We could talk about this more, because I think people do like to have something to celebrate and get behind a party, right?

Natalie
Oh, yeah.

Rebecca
I get that.

Natalie
And there are a ton of kids on the street. I know there are lots of kids on your street, but definitely on this strip there’s a ton of little people. When they do the Halloweening around here, they walk with thermoses of hot chocolate and wine and the whole thing.

Rebecca
Violet is so excited about it. So I’d say that maybe we’re like…

Natalie
Curmudgeonly in a corner?

Rebecca
We don’t talk about that. They seem to be ok that we haven’t super-decorated, because I guess our pumpkins are there, but she did wake up going, “I’m so excited! This is my favourite day!”

Natalie
Frankie did too!

Rebecca
And I’m going to dress up somehow, I’m going to think of something. Simon is Ed Sheeran.

Natalie
Oh, yeah, that’s so perfect.

Rebecca
And they’ve decided I could be Ed Sheeran’s wife, Cherry Seaborn.

Natalie
Oh yeah, she’s a redhead, isn’t she?

Rebecca
I think she might be blonde — or is she a redhead? Anyway, she’s very generic-looking. I’m just going to be a woman.

Natalie
You’re not generic!

Rebecca
Cherry Seaborn is just a nice attractive woman, but what would I do to become her?

Natalie
Ok, we’ll have to look this one up. I’m a cat. I’m always a cat.

Rebecca
You’re always a cat, and that’s boring. So maybe that’s why we’re just bored. We need to take it harder. So next year, we surprise each other. How about that?

Natalie
Ok.

Rebecca
I am now going to set a timer, Natalie.

Natalie
So speaking of surprises, you’re going to surprise me with a question.

Rebecca
Who’s going to go first? Me, my question?

Natalie
No. I’ll ask my question today.

Rebecca
You’re going to go first?

Natalie
I’m going to go first.

Rebecca
Ok, I’m setting it — we’re going to do 15 minutes on your question. Whatever it is, and I might not have anything to say.

Natalie
Yeah, that’s fine. Then we’ll just sit here in silence.

Rebecca
We’ll sit here like bad students.

Natalie
“I will not participate.” Yeah, go for it.

Rebecca
Timer is on.

Natalie
So the thing that I have come to in the last couple days, that I really need some help reframing, is that I feel like I am good at helping other people to reframe things, and even offer advice, or little mini-wisdoms, or whatever it is that I can offer based on my experiences. But I am having a hard time in my head taking my own advice. It stems from, I think, my own frustration with what has happened over the last two years with my job. I have been feeling really sad. I think I’m grieving something, in terms of having had a really deep desire to make a change. I’m very dedicated to my students, and I love teaching, and I’m totally able to do what I do when I’m in the room. I can put the teacher/edutainer thing that I’ve talked about before on, but it’s taking more and more energy from me. That’s what I’m realizing. I used to be able to bounce back from that pretty fast — from all of the giving. I’ve noted that of late, I have not been bouncing back as quickly.

I recognize that it’s the pandemic, teaching is crazy, I have no prep and all those things, right. I can be logical about it. But I actually do think I’m sad. Certain opportunities that I have really hoped for, for making a change in terms of a career path — I feel like just doors have kept closing. Doors that really seemed wide open, with invitations in — and then it’s like, at the last minute, “Nope,” and a shutdown. I feel like I should be able to look into my own toolbox of wisdoms and -isms to be able to help me through this, so that I wasn’t feeling this kind of fatigue. But I’m not feeling like they’re working. I feel like I need some new spark of youness to guide me through here, because I don’t know how to reframe my own feelings.

I don’t know, this could be anything. You could really riff on anything. It could be my feelings of failure, it could be that I don’t know how to reframe my feelings of frustration or anger at things not working out. But generally, it’s a sense of dissatisfaction that I can’t quite shake, and I am not used to that. I’m used to being able to shake it and be ok, and it not just be words — like, to actually feel ok. I am struggling. So there, that’s what I’m feeling.

Rebecca
Ok. That’s a good one, Nat. A good, challenging one — that’s what I mean by that. One thing I would say, and I said this to you before, I think you should try my therapist. I said this to mom about something — “Why not talk about it?” I think both of you have some resistance, because you’re so intelligent, not trusting that someone could bring you something surprising. That’s one thing I would say. How does that sit with you? Maybe you don’t need to talk more, maybe more talking is not what you need. A couple things come to my mind, but that’s one of them. That is a benefit of your job, that you have a health plan — give yourself three sessions and see what comes from them. We have our podcast, we get to reframe together, but it’s not all about you. Maybe something that was all about you.

I think that the giving of teaching, of mothering, of being a very dedicated wife, supporting the family, making all these amazing meals — I think you like to do that, but you don’t take very much. I get it, we’re paying someone to listen to us, but when I’m with my therapist, I do half- dread it every time, you know what I mean? I don’t really want to go there.

Natalie
Why?

Rebecca
I did say to her one time, “Oh, I was kind of dreading it.” Because it’s risky, or — how had we framed it? It’s really vulnerable. She was even admitting that she has to get into that space too, because it is for her as well.

Natalie
You mean, as a listener, she has to get into that headspace.

Rebecca
Yeah, there’s kind of a vulnerability for everyone — which I thought you would appreciate, because she’s the expert, but it is a give and take. Finding this delicate balance together, of “Am I hearing you?” I think she wants to be able to offer something.

Natalie
That’s helpful to hear.

Rebecca
I appreciated hearing that too, yeah. She comes with a little bit of nervousness, just like I do. Like, “How’s this going to go?”

Natalie
Hoping for the best.

Rebecca
Yeah. Is this going to be the session that really sucks, where you don’t get me, or where you say the wrong thing? Because I’ve had that happen in therapy. All of a sudden they say something that really gets me, or rubs me the wrong way, so I’m afraid. But I would be interested to see you…

Natalie
Try that?

Rebecca
Yeah, do some things for yourself. Fully for yourself. We can’t make the job thing magically change. I was going to say, have you heard from another place?

Natalie
No.

Rebecca
So weird. But I would say, what are the things you can fully give to yourself? The other thing is (we sort of laugh at it when I do it): that exercise class that I do. Which I’m a little bit hesitant to say, because it’s not cheap. I half feel like it’s an indulgence to do it.

Natalie
Which shouldn’t be wrong. We’re allowed to have our indulgences.

Rebecca
It’s like what it would be to go to the gym. It’s kind of funny, because that actress Naomi Watts — it’s her trainer. Or I don’t know if it’s her trainer, but Naomi Watts was a spokesperson for this exercise class at one point. It’s called The Class, I’m not promoting it.

Natalie
But you like it.

Rebecca
I do like it, and I would love to see you find some space to do it in. Not when you’re with me — because I know you’ve done it with me a couple of times at the farm — but not where anybody is watching you, where you could shut all the doors. Because there’s an aspect of authentic movement to it, where you just shake some stuff out.

Natalie
Yeah, that sounds hard.

Rebecca
But if it sounds hard…

Natalie
Maybe that’s good.

Rebecca
Because I wonder if you could shake some stuff up in yourself?

Natalie
Well, I don’t want to cry right now, Bec, but that does sound hard. I feel like maybe I’m holding everything together really tightly right now.

Rebecca
I think you keep everything ordered, and in control. I think that would be a contained way to let something out. Because you’re letting it out in that context. Even in therapy, I think you could have those moments where you release — where you can just say to the therapist, “This is what I feel. I feel sad. I feel whatever.” And you could deal with it in the container of that session — and same with in this class. You don’t have to feel like it’s spilling over and now making everything feel out of control.

Sometimes I feel like you might worry that everything will break apart, and now all of your structure will come undone. The structure that you’ve worked towards, because actually your structure is beautiful, right? I was driving this morning, thinking, “Wow, I want more order in my life. I need to not have to think about what’s going to happen. I just want to have things ordered.” I was craving it. The same breakfast, the same clothes, the same schedule — I just want it all to be the same, so I can just feel cleaner. I’m so chaotic often in my mind. So it’s not to discount the order you’ve created. You have it for teaching, there’s no choice. That damn bell.

Natalie
That fucking bell!

Rebecca
But what is a way to break it down a little bit for yourself?

Natalie
That’s really helpful. I am curious at my own resistance to just making the call. I even feel like this when I write papers. I will avoid, avoid, avoid — and not procrastinate, I’ll do lots and lots of thinking, and then finally I’ll just say, “Now just put it down.” And then once I’ve started, now it happens. I feel like the phone call to a therapist, for example, would be a little bit of this. I’m going to sit in this thought for a little bit. Then all of a sudden, I’ll text you for the phone number, and then as soon as I get the phone number, I will call her, because it’ll be like — now I’ve started that, so now the ball’s rolling.

Rebecca
And you know what, she’s really busy, so she wouldn’t be able to fit you in for a long time anyway.

Natalie
And that’s good. That’s probably helpful, yeah.

Rebecca
But I do think there’s something about treating things as experiments too. They say that in parenting — “Try that thing.” I just heard some parenting experts say, “Give yourself the freedom to try some routines, and see how they go, without feeling like you’re committing.” It was something about a phone. “If I give my kid a phone, does that mean we’re…” That’s actually a hard one, because yes, if you give your kid a phone, you’re not going to take that phone back! That’s not a good example. “If we go to bed at 9:30 instead of 9:00, is this going to mess us up forever?” So you could be like, “Could I try The Class?” I’ll tell you who the good teachers are, and just do it for a month. I think they have it free trial for a month. Nat, there’s no excuse.

Natalie
Rebecca, this has been my whole life with you. You forever are the one who does the experimentation. It’s like going into the grocery store. You’re the one that’s willing to try the new thing that might flop, but inevitably ends up being really delicious, and then I will take you up on that.

Rebecca
Not always delicious!

Natalie
Most of the time. And then I end up trying the thing that you’ve suggested, and it works.

Rebecca
And then you will do it to the end, and you will be so fit. So good, you’re going to try The Class, and you’re going to try my therapist.

Natalie
Ok, there is something in that. That’s true.

Rebecca
Because she’s smart. You won’t…

Natalie
Feel like I’m having to drag something along?

Rebecca
No. How do I feel sometimes in therapy? I don’t feel like I’m doing the therapy on them, but…

Natalie
Well, yeah. I don’t want to go into a place where I feel like I’m the caregiver.

Rebecca
No, I don’t think you have to with her. I really feel like you can surrender to her process. “What do you have for me? What could we do with this?” And she’s intuitive and sensitive. I think it would also be neat to see you move on from the therapy situation we sort of alluded to — where we both felt a bit hurt by that one therapist in our life.

Natalie
Yeah, I would like that, too. Ok, text me her number at the end of this.

Rebecca
And you show me a picture of you doing The Class. Actually, it’s really fun. I wrote about it on my newsletter. What was the stuff she says? On the spot, I can’t think of it — oh, yeah, she loves to say, “Notice what you notice.” “And just notice what you notice.”

Natalie
Oh my goodness, I’m just going to end up standing there crying. That’s going to be the hard part. She’s going to say, “Take a breath,” and then I’m going to be sobbing.

Rebecca
Ok, I think that would be amazing. Actually she’s interesting, the founder of that. She hasn’t had a really simple life. She’s obviously made a ton of money somehow, because she lives in a great condo in New York, you can tell. But she seems like she’s had some trials, so I feel like I can respect that she has worked to get to this place. This is a place where she has found healing.

Natalie
It’s not like it just happened.

Rebecca
She’s not like an heiress. The other thing I wanted to say (I know you know this) — but about meditation, as I’ve started to explore Buddhist teachings. I listened to this one guy who was saying — this must be part of Buddhism — where you identify if this is a worldly thought you’re having or an unworldly thought, and is it positive or is it negative. When you’re experiencing a dissatisfaction, that’s a worldly negative thought. This is just his language, and I don’t know if it’s exactly Buddhist language — because I mentioned it to dad and he was like, “I don’t know about that ‘worldly unworldly.’”

Natalie
Well, Clifford would use that language, though. Maybe not necessarily —

Rebecca
Oh my goodness, that’s our timer, Natalie!

Natalie
We’re done! Ok.

Rebecca
Ok, I’ll just finish this. So Clifford would use that language?

Natalie
Something of that ilk, yeah.

Rebecca
So it must be actual Buddhist language. But where you just identify the thoughts — so you go, “Ok, I’m having this worldly thought,” of the world, of your sensations, and it’s basically an aversion — “I don’t want this in my life.” When you have those thoughts, it brings pain — we’re resisting something, or we really want something. If we want it or are resisting it, it brings us the chaos inside. So you just identify it — “Ok, I’m having this thought.”

Natalie
And then what? What’s supposed to happen with that, in my identification?

Rebecca
The more you identify. I think maybe just that. If I was your therapist, I would say, “Just start to identify them. Is this neutral? Is this worldly? Is this unworldly?” Because we’re trying to have more unworldly thoughts.

Natalie
Ok, so that would be the idea — trying to move away from…

Rebecca
I don’t even think they would say, “Move away.” I think they would say, “Just identify them.” Just acknowledge what you’re experiencing. I think what I would say for you is just go deep into, “What am I feeling?”

Natalie
As in truly living in the present — that overused kind of phrasing.

Rebecca
And acknowledge — I think you are saying it and I think it’s good — I’m sad. Acknowledge it, so that you’re not suppressing it.

Natalie
Yeah. Which is probably what I feel like I have to do, just to be able to function with all the needs that are coming at me.

Rebecca
I would really love it if you were saying to your students, “I’m ok, guys. Having a worldly thought of aversion to all of you.”

Natalie
“I’m just going to go.”

Rebecca
Or you can just be like, “There it is.”

Natalie
You know what, I should. I should try that.

Rebecca
Just be real human with them. Nat, we’re going to check in on you in a couple weeks.

Natalie
To see how I’m doing with this one — which means I need to actually follow through. You need to send me the phone number.

Rebecca
And I’m going to send you the website and the worldly/unworldly session. I think I could send that to you because it was in the Waking Up app, which I know I’ve mentioned to you before, and you were like, “Uh-huh. Uh-huh.” Have you reached rock bottom, Nat?

Natalie
I’m hitting pretty close, Bec.

Rebecca
You’re going to do some things. We’re going to check in with you.

Natalie
Ok. Thank you, Bec. That was really good. That was very helpful, and I feel very heard.

Rebecca
I love you.

Natalie
I love you.

Rebecca
Ok, so now we’re setting a new 15 minutes for mine. Are you ready?

Natalie
Yep, I’m ready.

Rebecca
Ok. This is when you get to shine, Nat.

Natalie
No, I felt shiny there. That was good. I felt really listened to.

Rebecca
You brought a good problem — a really authentic problem.

Natalie
I tried. I was trying for real.

Rebecca
I felt it. I thought it was really honest. Mine is the problem of ‘why.’ I think I have a problem with this question. ‘Why?’ is the biggest question in my vocabulary — besides saying something is interesting, which I like to say on this podcast. But why? See, my voice even goes, “Why?” I like to solve ‘why?’ — why has something happened to me? What was that other person thinking? Let’s get into the story. My therapist will say, “It’s not a useful question.” Simon says that to me all the time — “Not a useful question.” Sometimes I’m annoyed at how smart he is. He’s like, “What and how. Those questions are interesting.” Or useful. So I want to ask you about that. Even though people tell me it’s not a useful question, I still think it is. I’m like, “No no no, I just need to solve it. I’m almost there. If I could just get into that person’s head, what they were thinking, this won’t hurt so much.”

Natalie
So you’re thinking of this in relation to so many different things. “Why did my computer die?” Like that kind of a thing? Or is it about people?

Rebecca
I think more about people. “Why did this situation happen?” Eight years ago, when we got the news that Violet had this heart condition, I remember so viscerally crying with mom, and my question was, “Why my baby? Why?” — which no one can answer.

Natalie
No.

Rebecca
But I’d still struggle with it. Even as a person who does believe in God, I think it’s a hindrance even there because you can’t can’t know the workings of the world. I think I just don’t want that to be my question always.

Natalie
I do feel like you started with — you were kind of joking a little bit about — this internal battle. But I do wonder if this question starts there. In that you don’t like for things to ever be overly simplified, because that doesn’t feel authentic, it doesn’t feel real. It’s probably a couple things at the same time. So the question “Why?” probably fits that very specific worldview.

Rebecca
And how can you be a writer, how can you write a character, if you haven’t figured out their “Why?”

Natalie
For sure. You said to me one time, something that you noticed that I was pretty good at was bracketing. I mentioned that to a friend when we were walking the other day, and she’s like, “What do you mean by bracketing?” I was like, I guess Bec would mean putting parentheses around a certain section or event or idea that maybe needs to get more deeply engaged with, but maybe not in that moment. So I can bracket ideas at different times. That goes back perhaps to my more controlled schedule, where I have to be in a very specific place at a certain time, I can’t just let loose and be all in my feelings when I’m with my kids. There are moments — the other day, I was sitting with a group of kids reading a book and I was crying, but I was crying because it was very specifically about that book. They were talking about abuse, and I’m sitting with these four girls, and I don’t know their stories, and I’m feeling anxious that this could be really triggering for them. But I’m also picturing sad stuff in my own story that I’m attaching to this part of the book, and so then I get all weepy. And they’re all like, “Oh no, miss is crying, what do we do?” — but it was actually a really good authentic moment where I just got to feel they could see a teacher being human. But then I had to put brackets around those feelings and go back in the class and now deal with 28 other people.

So all that to say: you don’t live a schedule necessarily where you do put on brackets that often. You have, at different times when you’ve had to. If you’re teaching a course, if you’re offering a workshop — all the various things that you have dotted in your days that are part of your job, part of who you are as an artist and a writer and a producer and all those things. But because they’re not so consistent, there could be something in there where you’re not having to flex those muscles as much. I think that the “Why?” question there is probably a useful question for parts of your brain — the creative part that is going to help you to write a better character. But that’s also because you get to give the answer. You’re the author.

Rebecca
I make up the answer.

Natalie
Yeah. You literally get to create it, you get to story it. And the reality of the rest of life is that Simon’s not wrong. “Why?” is not terribly useful when you can’t provide the answer. And even if somebody really truly gave you the answer, it might not be satisfying, because their response to your “Why?” might not match up with how you would story that experience simply because it’s two different people. Two different people with two different stories, they may not match up. That’s all. It just may be as simple as that.

Rebecca
So even if you could have the “Why?” fully fleshed out — “This was my ‘Why?’, now you know,” I still might be dissatisfied by that answer.

Natalie
That’s what I wonder — but it’s interesting. “That’s a less interesting question,” — that kind of language that might be used in other conversations in your life, I’m not sure I totally agree with that. I think it is a very interesting question to try and empathize with another to see where they’re coming from. I do think trying to kind of engage with the “Why?” is not a bad thing, actually. Perhaps giving yourself the freedom to say, “If I spend a little bit of time, if I give myself a 15-minute timer to sit with this ‘Why?’ and really wonder about it,” but then be able to apply some parentheses around that 15-minute moment at the end of it, and then release it. If you’re saying, “I can release it with a dance class,” I wonder if you could be able to have some physical thing that you do that actually lets you release that in that moment.

Rebecca
Or punctuate — “This is the end of this speculation.”

Natalie
Yeah, what a great line. Even if that punctuation comes in the form of a walk — like, “This is how I exit this space. I am going to exit this moment with this walk to go get this croissant from this bakery.”

Rebecca
I really like that because I feel bereft when Simon or my therapist has said, “No, bad question,” even though Simon means that for my good when he says that, so I get that. It feels like a necessary journey for me, but then I think that’s really important to hear that it must stop at a certain point. If it feels like you must, you must bracket it.

Natalie
There’s where my second point was going to be about this. I think that one of the reasons why you might be drawn to the “Why?” is because you are so smart, and you know that you’re not really going to get the answer. You actually know you’re not.

Rebecca
So I know I’m going to stew around in it a bit, and I like that?

Natalie
I don’t know that you’d say, “I like this feeling.” I don’t know that it’s about a ‘wound yourself’ sort of thing. But I do think it’s familiarity. You can recognize those feelings of frustration or pain or irritation, all the things that come with not being able to get the answer. To actually steady yourself in the more bedrock-y answers that come from the “How?” or “What?” are perhaps really less interesting to you. You want to be interested. You’re a keen learner, right? You want to learn, you want to be engaged, you want to be — I use this word carefully here — entertained, right? I mean, because you’re a storyteller. There’s this writer, Salvio, that I have written about in my own stuff, and she doesn’t just talk about storytellers but she talks about story takers. And you want stories.

Rebecca
And I want my own story to be interesting?

Natalie
No, I wasn’t going there (but there could be something in that). But the idea of taking other people’s stories, and then them funding your own worldview. It just adds more interest to the world, it adds lots more flair and colour and ideas. You’re not an accountant. You’re an artist for a reason, even though you were always good at math.

Rebecca
Well, I’m not that good, Nat.

Natalie
Well, you were ok. Clifford’s really good at math. But anyways, the point there is that there could be some control that you have in this that you have perhaps not acknowledged, truly. That could give you the control, or the desired end result, differently than the actual answer to “Why?” — is you just naming, “I’m sitting in this because I want to sit in this, so then I get to take myself out of this.”

Rebecca
Because I can choose to be here, or I can choose to take myself out.

Natalie
I do think that.

Rebecca
That’s hard, Nat.

Natalie
Yeah, no kidding. Well, it also goes back to the body habit thing. We just do what’s familiar. I am very good at just chugging forward. I will get the job done because the job needs to get done. I’m not so great at checking in on myself, and actually doing the caretaking of me. So I will always go to that, versus this. I have to do the work.

Rebecca
Maybe I’m very good at stewing around in all the angles of something.

Natalie
Because you’re good at empathizing with people, you’re good at taking in their feelings, you’re good at all the things that come from that that are good. This is not a bad thing. But the bad might end up being the impact on you, in the end — which is where Simon and your and your therapist would go.

Rebecca
It seems like we both need more balance, Natalie.

Natalie
Yeah, maybe this is about yoga. I was standing in tree right before you got here, I was trying that.

Rebecca
We both just need to do more yoga?

Natalie
Maybe.

Rebecca
Ok. Just tell me one thing to do, because I’m telling you to do The Class. Are you telling to do yoga? Because I just want one tangible thing I do after this. Because I already do The Class, so do I need to do yoga, too? Would that be my answer?

Natalie
Well, I think The Class is about a release of emotion. I’m suggesting that this is less about a release of emotion and more about taking control of your time — literally the time you allot to that emotion. So I’m wondering if you actually start the practice of timing yourself with your “Why?” If you know (because you do) you’re going down that road.

Rebecca
No, I don’t know!

Natalie
Yes, you do! Then if you say, “I’m entering this state, so I need to draw myself a little door, and I know when I’m going to exit that state.” It might be that you’ve timed it like you’ve timed our little interview here. Then at the 15-minute mark, whether you are done thinking about it or not, put on your coat and go for a walk.

Rebecca
And be like, “This is done.”

Natalie
Yeah. Put on a podcast at that point, or put on a song, so that you don’t get to just walk and keep thinking about it. You jolt your brain.

Rebecca
And say, “This is done. I’m putting the lid on this.”

Natalie
Yeah. I wonder if that would be the start of something that would help to interrupt the “Why?” so that you’re not negating something that is naturally a beautiful part of you, but is finding a way to make it serve you better. That would be one thing, I think.

Rebecca
Timers.

Natalie
Timers.

Rebecca
I love timers. I think you’re right, Nat.

Natalie
Timers are amazing. Do you know Steve Patterson (who was on our show), his wife Nancy is the one who introduced Clifford to timing with Frankie. Clifford and Frankie’s life run on timers like nobody’s business. The alarm goes off at whatever time before they get ready to go to school, and Frankie hears the alarm, and it doesn’t then have to be an argument between Clifford and Frankie about it’s time to get ready to go — the alarm’s gone off. The alarm’s gone off and Frankie, like a little Pavlov’s dog, stands up off the couch and puts the socks on and just starts, because it’s so a part of his rhythm.

Rebecca
And Nancy does that too, with her kids?

Natalie
Nancy’s the one that taught this to Clifford, way back at the ELC, pre-pandemic. Yeah, there’s our timer. Stop talking.

Rebecca
I feel this sense of elation inside me, that we did the timing.

Natalie
And maybe there’s something in that. So thank you, Nancy Patterson. But seriously, maybe there’s something to really glean. What’s often good for our kids I think is good for us. If we’re doing it for them because we know what’s good for their mental health, why wouldn’t we try the same for ourselves?

Rebecca
Ok, I’m going to try that, Nat. Timing my “Whys?” and checking in in a month. Is that a good time? Four weeks.

Natalie
I like that. That gives us time to get into a habit. I think it’s 21 days for a habit to form, so a month gives us a little wiggle room.

Rebecca
Don’t have to start tomorrow. Let’s start in a week.

Natalie
Exactly. Give me two days.

Rebecca
Alright.

Natalie
That was good. I found that helpful.

Rebecca
Happy Halloween!

Natalie
Go eat some candy! I love you.

Rebecca
Love you.