Rebecca
Hey Nat.

Natalie
Hey Bec.

Rebecca
Feels like it’s been a while.

Natalie
I know. I mean, it kind of has been, because we’ve been interviewing other people, and then we had a conference with so much learning.

Rebecca
So much. We haven’t just had a calm conversation in a while.

Natalie
And even that’s hard to make happen, with all the needs.

Rebecca
We have needs around us.

Natalie
All the needs that surround us. I’m coming off of a weekend of literally having had not even one minute to myself, because it was a heavy marking weekend. Everything was given to my students — which is wonderful, because they all deserve it. But this is a Monday that I’m starting…

Rebecca
You’re starting empty?

Natalie
Starting empty.

Rebecca
What does it feel like? Do you just feel like someone gutted you, like you just took all your insides out? It’s a very gruesome image.

Natalie
Yeah, but it seems about right. You know what, I do. I feel like a shell of a person. So I’m going to fill myself up with this conversation.

Rebecca
I’m watering your garden, Nat.

Natalie
That’s what you’re doing, Bec. Today, we’re reframing risk, so why not water my garden?

Rebecca
Yes, because I just want to talk about risk. I really like risk, and I’m examining it in my own life. I begged you to talk about this with me.

Natalie
It’s good. I think this is a good idea.

Rebecca
To my gutted shell of a sister, please talk about risk. It doesn’t feel relevant to you right now?

Natalie
I think it’s always relevant. I’ve got big risks, big plans coming, I just have to figure out how to name them into the world — but I will.

Rebecca
I feel like something big is shifting for you. I know it is.

Natalie
I’ll be able to talk about it soon enough. I think I just have to sit with it as a reality — but let’s talk about your very real and present-day risk.

Rebecca
So I was thinking about how, in my previous partnership, I was definitely the risk-taker. I think I’m more of the risk-taker in my marriage. If it comes to investing, or when we were looking at this farm property, I just wanted to do it. “Let’s just do it.” I just like to go for it. But I also have this side of me that craves this calm life — just sit and stare and do nothing. So it’s this difficult contrast in myself. I don’t know if it’s just because I’ve lived as an artist, there’s such an element of risk there that I don’t even know how to live differently. Do you even think this is the right question that I’m asking. Am I all off? Or, “Yeah, this seems like your question to probe?”

Natalie
Definitely seems like a question to probe. Let’s ask it. I don’t know if it’s the right question, but maybe the question itself will emerge. Maybe part of this is just unpacking the idea of risk, and then seeing if it’s still away. Maybe at the end of the conversation you would reframe even the question, but let’s start where we’re at. You don’t like being pinned down.

Rebecca
No.

Natalie
I always find this a little bit funny. I love the idea that you say you want to sit and just stare into nothing and drink your coffee, because Clifford has really channeled that. In the morning he’s like, “I’m doing what Rebecca would do. She has modeled this for me.” Because you joke about it — even at the farm, you just want to sit with the coffee — and he’s claimed that now as something that he wants to emulate you. You’re like a leader, so well done. At the same time, I don’t actually think you really want calm, because that’s not how you live.

Rebecca
Because it’s antithetical to risk, right? Calm.

Natalie
And it’s also just not how you ever seem to make your choices. You come into my house and you always comment on how calm it seems. Ordered.

Rebecca
Nat, you live in a Buddhist centre.

Natalie
That’s true.

Rebecca
That’s what it’s like coming into your house. It’s a beautiful experience. I’m like, “Where’s the chaos?” The counters are always so clean.

Natalie
But that makes me feel so good. I need that calm space, I actually get a little bit thrown if I come into the house and things aren’t relatively tidy. Not thrown to the point where I would get upset about it, but I’ll just start doing it. I’ll just tidy a thing.

Rebecca
You’re going to start making the space the way you need it, to build that interior self.

Natalie
Yeah, I think that’s what it is, for sure. You don’t do that in your space. We were always doing this when we were kids. You would do a deep clean look at seven, and the nine-year-old Natalie was really comfortable with a superficial tidy.

Rebecca
But constant — it was a constant tidy.

Natalie
Yeah. Mom has pictures of you as a kid with every single toy you owned in the bed with you, and there was this tiny little space for you and your little body. But it was everything — “I want everything with me!” So who knows what that says — you’ve got all the ideas all the time. You have lots happening. That makes sense to me, that chaos — if you’re calling it that, I don’t know that I would have. I think I just might call it ‘activity,’ like, “There’s activity happening.” I’m not sure you really are craving calm the way you say you are. That’s my one perspective that I offer. Honestly, if you spent a week living my life at school, where everything is controlled by bells, I don’t think you’d be the same person. I just don’t think you’ve ever lived that. You don’t have that ordered schedule.

Rebecca
Hello, I taught for one year. I do remember the bells, sort of considered that a form of torture.

Natalie
Ok, well then you have lived it and didn’t like it.

Rebecca
Yeah, because you wanted to challenge me to do that, right?

Natalie
I did wonder. Maybe you should set on your phone a few bells to say, “Ok, this is the next thing that I’m going to do.” There is something in that. Honestly, the alarm went this morning and Frankie went, “What is that for me?” because he and Clifford have a bunch of alarm set for different steps.

Rebecca
Clifford likes to do alarms with him.

Natalie
Yeah, he learned it from our friend Nancy (shout out to Nancy and Steve Patterson, from The Debaters) but that was one of her ways. Clifford really took to that because he thought it sets both him and Frankie up for success as they do their morning routine.

Rebecca
I do set timers when I write, to force myself to focus.

Natalie
Ok, so you’re doing some of that.

Rebecca
And then sometimes when the thing goes off, it’s like, “Ah-ah-ah!”

Natalie
It’s jarring, right?

Rebecca
It’s very jarring.

Natalie
I know. Believe me, I’ve lived 20 years of it. It is jarring.

Rebecca
I think, yes, my natural inclination is for something more chaotic or busy or active.

Natalie
Or organic.

Rebecca
Organic, that’s actually more what it is. Thank you, Nat. It’s not that I’m seeking chaos, it’s this kind of organic emerging…

Natalie
Let things emerge.

Rebecca
But I’m trying to also just look at myself and be like, “Where do I want to shift things?” Because we can shift, please tell me we can shift.

Natalie
Well, I really do believe we can shift.

Rebecca
You could move into something more organic. You could try. You could experiment having your counters dirty — I don’t know why you would do that, but you could.

Natalie
But that doesn’t feel organic to me. That just feels messy, whereas I think I can do more organic within a framework of some sort.

Rebecca
You could do organic within a framework.

Natalie
I can do organic within some sort of a structured space. You know, like a sandbox. You can do all the things inside the sandbox, but you’ve got the safety of…

Rebecca
You mean the border?

Natalie
I think this is an elementary education metaphor. I’ll have to check in with my friends on that one. But the idea of sandbox learning, I think it’s a thing. It’s also in gaming. All the freedom you have within the sandbox — you have this space that’s created.

Rebecca
That’s true, because even in writing or whatever, limits are excellent. Remember Kyo Maclear, she did that really cool workshop on writing kid’s books, and her way into a kid’s book is often to set a limit. “I’m going to write this in just dialogue,” or, “I’m going to make my characters animals,” whatever the limit is.

Natalie
So you don’t lose yourself in something. There’s that chance, right? There’s always that risk.

Rebecca
Yeah, a few more borders.

Natalie
So borders, a few bells. Those can be options.

Rebecca
Tell me what your biggest risk has been in your life.

Natalie
Getting divorced.

Rebecca
Oh. That’s an obvious one, I guess.

Natalie
Yeah, for me. I mean, that was a risk because I was risking people I loved in the midst of a big change I felt like I needed to make. It wasn’t just about me — I don’t think that any marriage or any relationship ever is. That was a huge risk that took years to be able to come to, and then there was just the actual financial risk of buying him out of the house we were in. I had no ability to actually make that happen, but yet I knew I needed to make it happen for myself, so I had this plan of how I was going to build an apartment in the basement and then rent it out to students at the Humber College, which was nearby. So I knew I had a very logical pragmatic plan that could happen, but none of it existed — it was all a plan in my head. I had to take the risk to actually put the plan into action. So that was pretty massive.

Rebecca
And do you remember what it felt like in your body? Did you have stress? Do you remember the physiological responses from that time? I’m asking that because I listened to an interesting Radiolab podcast. It was this science guy (possibly a cardiologist) talking about the functions that shut down when we’re under stress. Our body actually stops doing certain things so it can survive under stress.

Natalie
So is that bad?

Rebecca
No, it’s good. It’s just what your mammal body should do. Your digestion will stop, your bowels will evacuate. So anyway, I’m just curious, did you experience those things?

Natalie
I don’t remember having big shits. I think retrospectively, I can say I remember I was in ‘do’ mode, if that makes sense. My head was down and I was racing forward just to finish, because I knew I had to get to a certain finish line, since fall was coming. It was that kind of a thing. I had a certain amount of time to get something completed before a fall semester would start when students would need to come to Humber. I think I did what Kyo suggested and set some limits. So how did I feel? I think I probably didn’t do much paying attention to how I was feeling, because I just needed to do.

Rebecca
It’s a really worthwhile listen called Stress, I guess it’s one of their earlier episodes. They were talking about the implications on the body if you allow for prolonged stress.

Natalie
Well, there’s my leg, so it could have really been very much a reality. I can’t make that link necessarily, because nobody’s been able to make that link. No doctor, no specialist has been able to make a link definitively about why my leg is what it is, but it certainly feels possible.

Rebecca
With my risk-taking or the way I live, I often feel under stress. It’s funny how Clifford is saying he sees me drinking coffee calmly — I do like to do that. But I also experience a lot of stress in my body.

Natalie
Which he would also acknowledge. I think he’s just channelling that one very specific decision. He’s like, “That seems like a very wise decision. I will do that.” But yeah, that’s true.

Rebecca
When I listened to that podcast, I was like, “I wonder if I count as that A-type personality that lives under constant duress,” which is apparently one of the huge markers for heart attack.

Natalie
That goes back to when I said, “Is this good?” and then you said, “Yes,” but now you’re saying, “No.” So that’s interesting, the prolonged thesis.

Rebecca
I’m wanting to look at that in myself. Is my risk-taking also connected to prolonged stress? That’s something I need to examine.

Natalie
Maybe that’s what somebody listening to this could then have to wrestle with themselves. There are TED Talk episodes, the one that’s super popular is like, “Stress can be good for you.” That’s what it is. I remember watching that and going, “Ok, I can frame it that way,” but I think there’s a difference. We’re talking about the difference between a chosen moment of stress versus like this prolonged experience of stress that is life-long.

Rebecca
Or this is my way of being in the world that I need to adjust in order to live a healthier life.

Natalie
Yeah, because when students say to me, “Oh, I’m just a procrastinator. This is how I do it, miss.” I’m like, “You’re 17. How can you know how this is how you do? You’ve got a whole lifetime to figure out how you do.” But actually, that probably is a very human tendency, to say, “I own a thing,” so that you don’t have to change the thing, which is who I am.

Rebecca
Yeah. Lock into that.

Natalie
Right. So again, maybe it’s what you’re suggesting — we need to look at it, so that we can determine if there is the possibility for some movement.

Rebecca
It’s gotta be organic. I had a therapist session this week. I haven’t actually talked to her in a long time. I think she thought I was breaking up with her, and I felt like I should make sure I repaired things with her.

Natalie
Am I going to comment on that right now, or are we going to save this one, the fact that you have to care for your therapist?

Rebecca
Let’s bracket that. But I was saying: we were going to some function on the weekend, and I was saying, “Oh, I know I’m going to be really tired by this function, because I’m going to go in and ask a lot of questions, which is what I do.” The fact that I say that — “This is what I do. I always do this.” And she said, “Well, could you do a different thing?”

Natalie
Yeah, didn’t you say that she said, “Just pop a candy in your mouth.” And you know what, I’ve thought about that.

Rebecca
Really?

Natalie
Yeah. I was like, “I’m going to eat that asparagus. I’m just going to pop something in my mouth.”

Rebecca
Really? Did you channel it?

Natalie
Yup, I really actually did. Your therapist gave me help.

Rebecca
And I appreciated that because she was saying, “Maybe you would like to change something, maybe you don’t want to continue going for it.” In the end, I had some great conversations, and I think I still asked a whole bunch of questions, but I felt empowered by the option to say, “I don’t have to go forward in the same way.”

Natalie
Ok, so I was going to ask you, though — you asked me what my biggest risk was. What do you think has been your biggest risk?

Rebecca
I don’t know. I feel like that’s a hard one, and I feel annoyed that I asked you that question, because now I have to answer it. I feel like Simon and I took a risk when he was doing his PhD and his supervisor moved to California, and we were going to go live down there. We had no money. I was just so naïve, and then I found out I was pregnant in the bathroom on the drive down.

Natalie
Oh, I forgot about that.

Rebecca
Then I had a pre-existing condition, all of a sudden.

Natalie
Oh, because being pregnant is a pre-existing condition.

Rebecca
Yeah. So we couldn’t get insurance. I was on welfare, essentially. So that’s a pretty big risk, if you examine all those.

Natalie
Totally.

Rebecca
But did I experience it as really risky? I can look at it and go, “There were lots of risks there.” Imagine if something had gone wrong.

Natalie
Yeah. If something had gone wrong, and you actually had to use their health care system, that could have been like these Americans who experience school debt, as a life-long overhang. That could be a health experience. Lots of people have experienced that, haven’t they. Wow.

Rebecca
Maybe the welfare would have covered it, I don’t know. I don’t know all the things.

Natalie
Ok, so how about we reframe the question to go a little bit sideways to it: have you ever had an experience where risk was imposed upon you? Though that’s kind of the same thing, because I guess Simon basically said, “I gotta go finish my degree in LA.”

Rebecca
Maybe. I think Violet’s surgery?

Natalie
Right. That’s not a risk you chose.

Rebecca
I would say, interestingly, my She Said Films partnership coming to an end. There was…

Natalie
Some imposed risk?

Rebecca
I think so. She was clear that it needed to happen, and I had to come to it…

Natalie
On your own time?

Rebecca
Yeah. So it felt like something I didn’t choose. Do we choose things just by how we are in relationships — do not even know you’re choosing? Do you know what I mean by that?

Natalie
Yeah, for sure.

Rebecca
So I was being a part of that dynamic.

Natalie
Well, I think that goes back to the idea of my students saying, “Well, it’s just who I am.” If it’s like an obvious part (obvious, I put that in air quotes), if it’s just an accepted part of who you are, then it could feel very much imposed.

Rebecca
Yeah, if you feel you have no control.

Natalie
If you’re just operating as part of something, whether it’s a relationship or whether it’s a group of some sort.

Rebecca
And you’re just feeling like things are being thrown at you, as opposed to, “I’m part of the dynamic that’s being created.”

Natalie
Actually, it’s interesting hearing you talk about this, because that’s got to be super empowering to be able to name that. I remember when Clifford said to me, when we would talk at the beginning of our relationship and we talk about looking back on past selves (and I’ve said this line so many times), with the idea about being able to put an arm around that younger person — that other person that was you. Actually separating the you now from the you then. Recognizing that the change has now manifested in a different Becca. I would say you’re a different Becca than who you were in that partnership.

Rebecca
Interesting.

Natalie
So I would just wonder, is there power in that type of imposed risk? Because in some ways, then the onus was taken off of you to have to make the shift, strangely. You get to shift, you get to grow, simply because a situation obligated it, and then you get to stretch new muscles or something. Is that reframing too far? I don’t know.

Rebecca
I don’t know. Which would be the same as you saying: your ex, he didn’t have to make the choice, but you offered him that opportunity.

Natalie
I guess so. Did he see it as an opportunity, then? Probably not, but maybe later.

Rebecca
Is this some crazy reframing? Or people would be like, “Ugh.”

Natalie
I don’t know, Bec. I have no idea. How many of our people in the various circles that we operate in… we know that there’s no such thing as a clean linear path through — even people’s kitchens as clean as mine. Life is really messy.

Rebecca
And the linear is not even linear. You could say everything followed, but that that doesn’t lead to happiness.

Natalie
Yeah, exactly. So do I think that taking these various risks that we’re talking about, whether they were chosen risks, or imposed risks? Well, it’s like risk / reward. Is there some benefit? I think so.

Rebecca
Yeah. You mean risk?

Natalie
Well, in general, if we’re saying these TED Talks exist. If TED Talks says it’s true, then obviously stress and risk are not inherently bad.

Rebecca
No, although it’s funny, if you just Google ‘risk’ on the internet…

Natalie
Ok, on the interweb.

Rebecca
On the interweb. It’s all bad. It’s taking drugs, there’s a risk. So you have to Google ‘healthy risks.’

Natalie
Oh, that’s interesting. Which suggests you need the right language to be able to navigate risk — just in life.

Rebecca
I think about it, because I’m observing — it occurred to me with the candy.

Natalie
Which candy? Oh, with your therapist?

Rebecca
The therapist saying, “You could put a candy in your mouth.” Basically, you need to name for yourself what you need. I’m thinking about this with Elsie dealing with her friends. She was telling me about how she felt left out in a moment, and I was saying, “Well, did you say that you felt left out? Or did you say that their back was to you, and that you couldn’t hear and you weren’t a part of the conversation?” She said she hadn’t named it. I think it was helpful that we had the conversation and then I think she’s going to try to name it. But I was just aware it’s important for her to see me take risks — put the candy in my mouth, name my needs. She needs to see me naming my needs, so she can do the same thing in her own life, even if it’s so small — like, “I just need to say to that person that I don’t feel included.” I don’t think that’s actually small for a tween.

Natalie
No. No, for a person, for an adult. Tamara and I were talking about that at school today — what does it mean to name your need, just in general? In a building where you have all these people who have their various needs, and your job at some level is to simply just provide for people, but you have your own as well. It can feel really risky, because your need might get in the way of somebody else’s need getting fulfilled. The caretaker / caregiver parts of us butt up against that, and that’s hard.

Rebecca
We aren’t used to prioritizing our need. Actually, it’s funny because in our last episode, we talked about me prioritizing pleasure.

Natalie
Oh, yeah, that was so great.

Rebecca
I feel like I need to put this into context because mom sent me an article from the New Yorker about how our food culture is such a problem, because there’s so much waste, and gold plating food, and it’s just so opulent, and how much of the world is starving, yet we’re eating. I did feel a little bit like, “Oh, dear. I don’t want to…”

Natalie
No. I mean, I hear what you’re saying.

Rebecca
I think it has to be balanced. I do think our family isn’t great at prioritizing pleasure. That is something I think people would need to know — that we suck at it.

Natalie
To save face. All we do on here is bare all. There’s no face to be saved at this point. This is the risk, Becca, right here.

Rebecca
Oh, my gosh, this is such a risk. I feel sick, and like I could take a shit right now. I remember that so acutely from theatre school, the bowels — evacuating the bowels, right before performance.

Natalie
You know what? This is just getting downright bodily. But I did need to take a big dump…

Rebecca
Scatological.

Natalie
Good. Well done, Becca. Before I went to a recent pickup — Frankie had been at a birthday, and I made the decision to test out my COVID risk aversion.

Rebecca
Oh, you think you needed to take the big dump because you were going to go be around people?

Natalie
I actually think I am so used to now being with people — I’ve got a few more students these days not wearing their masks, but I always wear my mask. I literally only take off my mask if I’m sitting in a closed room with Tamara and I’m about to go eat in a corner and she’s on the other side. Because I just don’t want to bring anything to her, I don’t want to bring anything to me. All the things. So all of a sudden, I’m debating whether I’m going to walk into this space, which wasn’t even a ton of people. We skipped going to see Paris Hilton because I didn’t want to get into that crowded elevator, even though it was going to be an outdoor party. That says something about my aversion to this very specific COVID risk, and I’m not even so worried for me — I’m worried for others.

Anyways, I think my body is aware of risk. I don’t know, there’s no other way to sum it up, and maybe COVID has just brought it really front and centre for me. I have no doubt that other people have navigated that, or are navigating it right now. I honestly feel like everybody walking through the grocery store who doesn’t wear a mask is sort of daring me to say something — no they’re not, they’re just living their own lives. But that’s the feeling that I have walking through, that everybody’s proving a point or something. That’s very in my head.

Rebecca
And we’re flaunting our willingness to take risks to one another.

Natalie
But I don’t actually think that’s happening. I really think that just says something about me, and how this is all affecting me. It would be very interesting to get people’s perspectives — is it just me, or are there other people feeling that risk at different times? There’s gotta be something.

Rebecca
Right. This is where we need you listeners to weigh in.

Natalie
And interrupt our potential self-flagellation, because here’s me now feeling bad. Now I’ve gotta whip myself for feeling like I’m such a bad risk-taker — when actually I’ve done some really good risk-taking over time. I won’t take off my damn mask, but I’ll get divorced.

Rebecca
That was so big. And I think people don’t also know the context of our family — I know we did refer to this back in episode one, but the context was: we come from a really tight and Christian family where divorce comes with its whole other labels.

Natalie
It’s very loaded.

Rebecca
It was such a big risk, Nat. You don’t have to take any others. One was enough, because it was so big.

Natalie
That was it. I covered it all.

Rebecca
Ok, last question: do you have an example of risk gone wrong in your life? Divorce is not risk gone wrong. That was something you needed to do. But do you have a smaller example?

Natalie
Oh yeah. Well, I guess every time I convince myself that I can exit the house (and this doesn’t happen very often, it’s maybe once a season), I’ll be like, “Oh, I can run to the grocery store. I can take the risk and not put on my compression sock for my health struggles with my leg.” It never works out. It’s a risk where there is just no reward. It’s inevitable pain.

Rebecca
Because your foot will just swell? Even to the grocery store?

Natalie
Oh yeah. Right now it hurts, and I’ve got my sock on. Now imagine if I take my sock off. It’s just all bad.

Rebecca
That’s a risk gone wrong.

Natalie
That’s a risk gone wrong. It’s not ever worth it. If you ever see me without it, “Natalie, what are you doing?”

Rebecca
You’re taking a bad risk.

Natalie
“This is not a worthy risk. This is not worth your time.”

Rebecca
Ok, I’m thinking of conversations that I’ve had, or moments that I’ve risked — thinking particularly of a moment around grade seven. Have I mentioned this? I was having a conflict with a girl, and I thought she needed to stay in the room.

Natalie
Ok, yes.

Rebecca
Have I mentioned this on this podcast?

Natalie
Perhaps. But that’s good. If you need to work this one through again, that’s ok.

Rebecca
Well, it’s an example of so many things, so it’s also an example of this. It was too aggressive. I was trying to keep her in the room to work this out with me. It was taking a risk to…

Natalie
Deepen a friendship?

Rebecca
Well, to address this conflict between us, but I think she did not appreciate it.

Natalie
She didn’t perceive it that way, at 13.

Rebecca
The blockade. She just was, “I need to exit this space.” So I think that was a risk gone wrong.

Natalie
Right. Good for you for naming that.

Rebecca
It’s embarrassing.

Natalie
No, I think there’s something beautiful about the fact that you can look back on that moment and go, “Hmm.”

Rebecca
“That was too much.”

Natalie
I remember telling somebody an honest truth about what I thought of something to do of their body that they couldn’t change. I don’t think that was risk, I think it was just mean.

Rebecca
You made a comment about someone’s body? Now I need to know all of it.

Natalie
We were at a bus stop, we were talking, some sort of conversation about things we can’t change, and I said, “Right, like your nose, you can’t change…” I know, can you imagine? I know, it was horrible, and I didn’t even mean it that way! And actually now, 100% she could, because how many years later people can do lots of things in terms of all the changes we can make to the body, the cosmetic changes.

Rebecca
Oh we certainly can. Actually, in LA, Nat kept pointing out all the people who had done their lips. I was stunned, and then I got over it, and I started to identify them with you, right?

Natalie
We did, because you can see it — and that’s all cool.

Rebecca
And some of them so young.

Natalie
Whatever. It was just, you know, different. Anyways, maybe not the risk I should have taken — that wasn’t even a risk, that was just more, “It’s gone wrong.” But there’s differences. This has perhaps gone down a different road.

Rebecca
We’re trying to prioritize the takeaways for you, our listeners. My last thing is I asked Simon about this — I know I just said it was the last thing, but this is the last last thing.

Natalie
The real last thing, yup.

Rebecca
I’d asked Simon what he thought about risk, and his comment on it was that he needs his day-to-day security, and then he kind of has a risk portfolio in his life.

Natalie
Oh, I like that.

Rebecca
That was his way of thinking about it. “What is the place I can take a big risk, and if I fail it doesn’t even matter.”

Natalie
So everybody just needs to walk away from this specific episode asking themselves, “Where might I start to build out my risk portfolio?”

Rebecca
Yes.

Natalie
Oh, that’s excellent. When we have money one day, we can pay Si.

Rebecca
What are we going to pay him to do?

Natalie
You know, to add little nuggets of wisdom at the end of our episodes. He has much to offer.

Rebecca
He does, he’s very wise. So, risk portfolio. I want to think about mine. Do you have anything you know that you want to add?

Natalie
No. I have to sit with this one a little longer. I already gestured to the fact that I’ve got some upcoming shifts, but I’m not ready to really engage with that yet.

Rebecca
And mine are… I don’t know. Something around my sandbox. More sandbox.

Natalie
You’re saying you potentially are willing to engage in taking the risk of actually creating a few more boundaries. Frameworks.

Rebecca
I think so, and saying no to certain things, and more framework. I love the sound of framework.

Natalie
I love you, Bec.

Rebecca
Ok, I love you.

Natalie
Don’t forget to subscribe and rate and review.

Rebecca
Those things really mean a lot to us. We really appreciate it if you take the time. It’s noted that that’s effort for you listeners to do those things. If you decide to engage with us on a voice note, we have that new voice note option, which you can access on our website.

Natalie
And also just a real thank you to those who have been sharing various episodes with friends and family. That’s absolutely the way to build out a podcast, and for us to be given the space and opportunity to keep making more episodes. So thanks for sharing, and please continue to do that.

Rebecca
All right.

Natalie
Later skater. Bye.