Rebecca
Hello Nat.

Natalie
Hi Becca.

Rebecca
Hello Sharon.

Sharon
Hello everybody.

Rebecca
We’re here with Sharon Glassman, who’s our wonderful guest. We just had a technology debacle, so we’re all exhausted.

Sharon
But we’re all bonded now. We’re totally friends, we went through something together.

Rebecca
We went through something together, yeah.

Natalie
It’s true. We’ve been through one side of a tunnel onto the other side, and now we’re emerging into the light. We’re going to be talking today with Sharon Glassman, who is helping us to reframe the concept of introversion. What does it even mean to be an introvert in the world that we live in today, which is very much an extrovert-focused world? We’re going to talk about that, but let’s just introduce you to Sharon. She’s a designer and songwriter and the founder of a company called Smile Songs, which is a line of musical greeting cards and gifts that play songs that Sharon writes to amplify the feel-good power of her designs. She’s been creating illustrated stories and playing music since she was a kid, but finding the courage to follow her heart’s dream wasn’t easy. Her path led her from being an introverted fashion journalist and performing artist in New York City to a grateful music paper goods maker in Colorado. She is here to share how introverts can rock the world their way, and then she might even sing us a song at the end if we are so lucky.

Sharon, I really have to open with this question, because my understanding of the terms ‘introvert’ and ‘extrovert’ are often placed side by side with a ‘versus’ in between, as if they are very different. I have understood them to focus less on the way that one interacts with people, and more about the way that one processes thoughts or gains energy. How does that framing of introversion and extraversion resonate for you?

Sharon
I think that’s exactly right. In my world, one of the key things about being an introvert is the need to recharge my batteries after something that someone else might think was super fun and would want more of.

Rebecca
Right, you’re like, I need to go and find myself again.

Sharon
Yes, I need some Gilmore Girls, please. It’s a very interesting thing, especially as a performer — and a lot of performers I hear really are introverted. The part of us that takes in things deeply allows us to read a room, perhaps create the song or the artwork that we’re presenting. That’s also to me a part of introversion — noticing a lot of things, and also being very sensitive to the way that other people are feeling, and maybe wanting to help them lift them up. So after we do all that, if we leave it all out on the floor, then it’s nappy time or it’s TV time or quiet time, by myself time. That’s when we recharge and get ready to do it all again.

Rebecca
Do you feel like we’re in a world that prefers extroverts, or you wouldn’t say that?

Sharon
I wouldn’t necessarily say that. I will say that a lot of things that generate a lot of attention, get a lot of attention, may in fact be extroverted things because we all tend to (I think) notice the shiny or the loud. However, while that shiny loud thing is going on, there could be a quiet gathering of people enjoying something else that might be more introverted — we just might not notice it because it doesn’t yell for our attention.

Rebecca
So your previous life as a fashion journalist — were you at a lot of shiny loud things? Do you see it that way?

Sharon
I kind of hacked that career to work for me, and made it somewhat introverted, but I did get the opportunity to go to the Met Gala — on the arm of a fashion designer, wearing a ball gown, and that was pretty awesome. But again, I experienced that I think the way an introvert does, which is noticing small details — the way lights might reflect on sequins, or this little nook and cranny. Those are my happy things. Those are the things that I would take away from that event. Interviewing (and one of the reasons that I shifted my career) was extremely difficult for me. I didn’t know at that point that I was an introvert, and that might be sort of an introverted way of interacting — of wanting to get the question right, wanting to have a deep connection, not wanting to offend anybody. That also comes from my family of origin, there was a lot of stuff mixed in that bag. But it did lead me to start telling stories on stage as opposed to reporting in a traditional way, which I found to be a more comfortable way for me to interview people and then share their stories.

Rebecca
Right, because you would think that an intimate interview would be an introverted experience, but you didn’t experience it that way. You felt it was requiring a lot of extroverted energy.

Sharon
Absolutely. That’s exactly it. I can see your point that it seems like it might be introverted, but I think something — for me at that time, and it’s changed now — felt very high stakes, and very being on display. I think, at least for me, the more that I worry about doing something, then the more stuff happens. It’s kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Once I found my comfort zone — and this took several years, and possibly even before I discovered the word introvert, which for me was extremely liberating giving a name to something that I felt very alone in and finding out I was far from alone, it might be almost 50% of the population that identifies to some degree in terms of being introverted, either how they take in the world, or how they need to recover from experience. Once I was comfortable with who I was, interviewing was not a problem. Neil deGrasse Tyson was probably the one of the more notable people that I interviewed, and by the time I did that I was very comfortable. It was no problem at all.

Natalie
There is something right, in finding language that resonates with an actual experience that you’ve never had the words to describe. There’s no way around that. I know I’ve experienced that in terms of research that I’ve done in education — all of a sudden I come across a term that defines the thing that I thought was new and just in my head. There’s something so exciting, because it means that there’s a shared community of experience, and that it’s out there. That means I’m a part of that, and I’m not isolated in my head alone — even though that can be a very healing space too, to have that alone space in one’s mind to process. There’s a balance, isn’t there — between striking out into community, finding the language for community, but also that space to rejig and to regenerate.

Sharon
Yeah, and what I’m hearing you describe is the difference between being alone and being lonely. And being lonely is no fun — I don’t think so. I think before finding the word ‘introvert,’ I felt pretty lonely, because there wasn’t a community. I can be perfectly happy being alone, with a book or with a thought or with a moment. I hear exactly what you’re saying. It’s that moment of, “Oh, I didn’t make this up. This is a thing.”

Rebecca
Right, you had to find a way to name what you were to yourself. Is that what you’re saying?

Sharon
And also what you’re experiencing. I think, back to Nat’s point — you have this idea, it’s sort of a theory at that point, or a thesis, or just a feeling or a worry. And then once it has a name. Oh, ok. It’s that. All right, good. Now we’ll move on, or engage with it.

Rebecca
Nat, are you introverted or extroverted? How do you see yourself?

Natalie
The way that I’ve always understood introvert and extrovert — I attach it a lot to my emotional experiences. As a teacher who’s constantly performing, the word ‘edutainer’ really does mean a lot in terms of my day-to-day. So I feel like I am seemingly extroverted in the eyes of my students, but the way that I process, I definitely disappear into my head when I’m finished with that edutaining time because I need to recalibrate. I would say that I’m actually much more introverted, and if I’m understanding introversion to be the way that I process my thoughts, it takes work for me to process my thoughts out loud with another person. First I think in my head. Even though I think it’s good for me to practice the other, I certainly think I’m striving for a balance between the two, but I probably am more in the introversion camp. Though again, people wouldn’t see that necessarily of me with my day-to-day gig. How about you?

Rebecca
Well, I think I like to be alone, but I like to process externally.

Natalie
Yeah. You do.

Rebecca
Nat’s like, “Yes, you do.” I really like feedback. So do you guys not like feedback as much, or do you like feedback, you just like it when you’re ready for it?

Natalie
Maybe that’s it for me. What about you, Sharon?

Sharon
It’s an interesting question. Do I like feedback? I think I do. I have a theory that Instagram is the happy place for introverts on social media. That’s just my experience — the feedback there’s pretty positive. I’m just thinking about ways I get feedback. I think spoken is fine. I’m going to go ponder this, this is a fascinating question I haven’t really thought about — but I do appreciate feedback, especially when it’s thoughtful, which I guess we would call introverted feedback or internal feedback.

Rebecca
Ok. So our little meander there, just meandering back to your company — can you just talk about the story behind Smile Songs?

Sharon
My interest in stories and illustration really did go back to being a kid at my parent’s table. I’ve always been a musician, but (and we’ll talk about introversion again) playing in an orchestra as a kid, I never wanted to sit up front. I always wanted to be in the back. I wanted to create music, I wanted to do all these things, but I kind of wanted to hide at the same time. The journey takes many, many twists and turns but I ended up moving to Colorado and becoming a fiddler in a country rock band by accident. I answered the wrong Craigslist ad. I thought I had seen something like, “Sit around the living room, no judgment, no nothing.” I must have looked at the wrong description, and clicked the wrong thing, and ended up showing up and thinking we were all sitting around the living room just having an introverted no judging experience — and I actually auditioned and got in to this band. It led me to be able to see the happy power of music.

Eventually, I started my own band, was a singer-songwriter, and performed for small groups of people. Mostly in really beautiful spaces here in Colorado, including a winery that is one of my favorite spots. It was there that someone came up to me and said, “This song means so much to me, it’s like you’re talking about me. If only there was a way I could take you home and put you on the wall so I could hear the song on demand and see you every day.” And that led eventually to Smile Songs, this concept of having greeting cards and magnets and art prints that sing songs that I craft to go with their positive messages and art to help you feel good with multiple senses, and feel seen and appreciated.

Rebecca
Right. And how is it different than just making an album? Why do greeting cards, as opposed to just, “Here’s my” — I keep wanting to say CD, I’m being transported back to a different world where you sell CDs?

Sharon
That’s a great question. For me, I’ve made an album — that to me is about the songs and the music. Absolutely it’s about wanting to reach an audience with them. But the starting point, or the lodestone I guess, would be the songs. With Smile Songs the starting point to me is being of service to kind-hearted and caring people, and to create a message on the card and then art, and to craft the song to amplify that message. The songs really don’t stand on their own so much. They’re shorter — they can be as short as a minute some, and range to three minutes. But they really are designed — so if I have a song called, “You’re Beautiful with a Y-O-U,” it’s going with a card that says “You’re Beautiful with a Y-O-U.”

Natalie
So it’s very personalized.

Sharon
Very personalized. I recently did a happy introverted birthday card, and when I wrote the song for that I was really thinking about that introverted person who’s having a birthday and getting that card and knowing that probably one of the things we all crave as introverts is a phone that never rings. So that shapes that song. So it’s really in the service of encouragement, happiness, and joy.

Rebecca
Right. These really tailored messages reminded me, Nat, of talking to Johnny Crowder and his interruptions.

Natalie
Yeah, his text-based interruptions. That’s true. I’m just having to really think this through, because everything that you’re presenting here in terms of a gift being given to some introvert receiver — on your website, you talk about introversion as a happy thing. So can you talk about that? Probably a lot of people have ideas or notions around the extroverted party and the introverted, well, loner. I think that those words become loaded. You’re thinking about this term from a very specifically positive perspective.

Sharon
Yes, and kind-hearted and caring people in general. Some of my products are definitely geared specifically toward introverts, but many of them are just for nice people. It’s a broad category, but people who want to share kindness. First of all, I do think that being an introvert is a happy thing. Being able to find things to be fascinated with, ‘a-ha’s, delightful moments within yourself is a tremendous gift. I feel that introverts, by being reflective readers, people who enjoy hanging out alone — not loner, but really choosing a company of one many times, because that’s enough. It’s really a positive thing. Other folks may enjoy or get the same happiness in a larger group. It’s really not one’s better than the other — it’s just a different way of being. I think, like most folks who’ve gotten maybe misunderstood or teased a little bit, introverts love to celebrate themselves and love someone saying, “Oh, you’re awesome.” I have an introvert power song that says, “Watch out world, the introverts are coming. And we’re thinking really loud.” And when introverts come up to me, at live events, or maker markets, and they pick up the card and they scan it, they start to listen, this smile just breaks across their face, they go, “That’s me, that’s me.” I’m like, “Yeah, I hear you.” It’s that idea.

Rebecca
Right — that you’ve really zoned in on this audience. Wanting to recognize each other in the crowd kind of thing.

Sharon
Absolutely — and yes, that idea of recognizing each other across a crowded room. But again, with cards that are more general that say, “2 4 6 8, we appreciate you,” it’s that message that makes people feel good and is a truth about themselves — a positive truth — that may not get said in the everyday world. That’s kind of where I use my introvert superpowers, of listening and empathy, to pick up on those messages and then bring it back to the world so somebody can say, “I have to give this to my friend,” or, “I’m going to keep this for me. I needed to hear this.” You know, I hear that a lot. “I needed to hear this. I need to give this to someone, they need to hear this.”

Rebecca
That’s so beautiful. Because greeting cards, I do associate them with being really cheesy sometimes. Do you? When you go searching through the card aisle, I’m like, “Oh, I would never be able to give that to somebody because it doesn’t feel specific enough.”

Natalie
Yeah, it’s really hard to find the one thing that matches the exact person you’re hoping for.

Rebecca
But it seems like you almost have people in mind when you are writing yours, so somehow they’re more specific. Do you think?

Sharon
Yeah, and I think also because they’re emotionally-driven. I have the benefit as a greeting card maker, as opposed to a greeting card corporation, let’s say. I think if you’re a super big corporation, probably your focus is a message that will apply to the largest number of people, because you’re a big company. Having a more maker-made brand, my interest is more emotional, and it’s finding cards that resonate with people who feel certain things. I have the opportunity, since I work in smaller batches, to be able to do that and, again, see that really happy face moment where people feel they’ve been heard and they’ve been seen, or that this represents somebody else that they know.

Rebecca
That’s really neat, because I think in our art, knowing that you’re having an impact is really huge to wanting to keep going. Did you feel like your previous life in New York was empty, or you didn’t feel as satisfied with how you were having an impact on the world?

Sharon
That’s another great question. I had never thought about it that way, but I think I would say yes. I would say I was doing things externally, that had values placed on them — as a voiceover artist, being a voice on a cable network, things that you could say, “Hey, that sounds successful, or of value in some competitive way.” You know, big cities being kind of competitive, but it did feel pretty empty. It wasn’t me, and it wasn’t what I wanted to be doing, and I didn’t feel that I was being my true self, because my true self was probably that little kid sitting at the kitchen table at my parent’s house. I remember illustrating this book and putting tin foil around some of the shapes and doing a little story about a dog and drawing the picture and being like, “Yeah, this is what I want to do.” I was probably seven or eight — and it actually was the truth. This is what I want to do. It’s just now in an adult forum, and it feels great.

Rebecca
That’s so satisfying to feel like you’ve found something that’s really you. Do you wake up and are you satisfied, Sharon?

Sharon
Oh, absolutely. I’m an optimist by nature, so I wake up in the morning, and I always find something immediately to be like, “That’s pretty cool. Look at that.” Having lived in New York City with a one bedroom apartment facing north with a brick wall in front of it about five feet away, just having an unobstructed window in my life is a cause for celebration every morning. I get up and go, “Look at that. I can see. This is great.” It doesn’t take much.

Natalie
Times have been really hard for the last couple years for so many, right? So how do you keep finding and returning to joy in what can seem to so many like unjoyful times?

Rebecca
How is COVID in Boulder, Colorado?

Sharon
We’re in a big Omicron phase here. People are pretty masked, things are challenging for restaurants and businesses and people and school. It’s definitely challenging all around. But your question really resonated with me because my husband and I were just in Kentucky for the funeral of a member of his family. To your point about joy and unjoyful times, what the pastor said, which I just thought was so spot on — he said, “It is a quality of human existence to be able to hold two contradictory feelings at the same time.” I think that really applies here. He was talking about grief and joy. A family is together, they’ve come together, but the purpose is very, very sad. Everyone’s grieving and grateful and joyful and sad and crying and laughing. I think, as he was saying, that’s just the nature of humans fortunately — that we can find a little light in the darkness. And when there is darkness, perhaps get through it together.

Rebecca
Did it take a lot of courage to do this, to move into this second — would you call Smile Songs a second career, or a second stage of life? Or how do you view it, and did it take a lot of courage to get here?

Sharon
I’m not a sign person. Truly, I’m not. I’m not that kind of person. But I got so many signs in New York that led me here that I almost could not ignore them. From giving a piece of mail to the letter carrier and getting two pieces of mail back, one saying, “Your apartment lease is up in two months,” and the second one says, “Your office lease is up in two months.” Oh, that’s strange. Apparently, my leases are up here. I don’t have to stay. What would I do? Then I went to a party and a woman said, “Oh, you should look up a company called so and so.” I looked it up and it didn’t exist as far as I could tell, but I found a company that’s similar and it said, “We have a sister company in Boulder, Colorado.” Moused over Boulder and I got goosebumps — I was like, “Boulder, Colorado? Maybe I should go check it out.” Went to Boulder, Colorado.

I would say for me, New York City was a place of ‘no’ — you always had to get over a lot of hurdles to get from A to B, just culturally. Colorado was a place of tremendous ‘yes.’ It was very different and very encouraging that you can go to someone and say, “I have this idea. I’d like to perform a novel and write songs for it on the porch of your bakery every Wednesday night at seven, and maybe you could serve cupcakes,” and my friend Michelle said, “Yes.” We had a living — every Saturday night going back a few years and every Wednesday night — where I did that, before I moved into the Smile Songs realm. So everything here, I think having the power of ‘yes’ and a community of people that are willing to support you makes a lot of stuff possible that might otherwise be really scary.

Rebecca
Do you think that’s a small town kind of — because I wouldn’t necessarily associate, Boulder’s not that small, right?

Sharon
No. Boulder’s not that small, and the town that we live in is probably under 100,000 — we’re outside of Boulder by about twelve miles. So not small.

Rebecca
Because you brought up Gilmore Girls, Luke — he’s a ‘no’ man. Always saying no to everything.

Sharon
Yes!

Rebecca
So I associate small towns with a lot of ‘no’s as well, but your experience of moving outside of a city has been a ‘yes.’

Sharon
A lot of ‘yes.’ I would argue (we would have to probably do this on our own time) but Luke’s ‘no’s are kind of a ‘yes.’ They’re like a pathway — he’s just waiting to be able to say three ‘no’s before he says ‘yes.’

Rebecca
That’s true, right. He just puts on a show of…

Natalie
He’s more like a ‘maybe.’

Sharon
He is like a ‘maybe,’ yeah. What I found here is — in fact, I just sent off a request to a brewer. I just did this card. Let me see if I can show you. It literally just came in. I guess the people at home, you won’t be able to see it, but hold on. So this is not about introverts, but I had done a winter market event at a brewery, and of course Valentine’s Day is coming up (I don’t know when this is going to air), but I had the idea of doing this, “I’m so hoppy to beer in love with you,” with these two steins and the heart connecting them. It sings a song called “I’m So Hoppy to Beer in Love with You,” of course. It’s pretty funny and out there.

Rebecca
That’s cute. I like that.

Sharon
Thank you.

Rebecca
We really like beer.

Natalie
I was going to say, I might order this for my husband, because that’s really funny.

Sharon
Yeah, there’s an art print version, too. That’s what it’s meant to be. It has like, “You make my heart sing la la la la… lager.” It’s ridiculous. I mean, it’s funny. I’m never afraid of a pun. I just went back to the brewery and said, “Hey, would you guys like to package these with some beer for people for Valentine’s Day?” I’m picturing maybe a guy who goes to the brewery to get a glass of beer and is like, “Oh, it’s Valentine’s Day, let me get my wife or my girlfriend or my boyfriend or my husband some beer,” — and then here’s a little card that goes with it, so you don’t have any more work to do, which makes things easy. I don’t know if anything will come with that. Cards are here, for sure. Will the collaboration happen? I don’t know, but Colorado’s kind of ‘yes’-y.

Rebecca
Right. “Sure, let’s collaborate.” I love that.

Sharon
My friend who hosted me on her porch all those years ago with the live novel just invited me to set up a little Smile Songs store in her bakery. So I’m going to be posting a video on Instagram soon of the process of us assembling the spinning greeting card rack together and thinking it was going to be like a five minute thing, and it was hilarious. It became a two hour… build the greeting card, unbuild the greeting card rack, it doesn’t turn, take out the cotter pins (I didn’t know what a cotter pin was). But everyone here is kind of in it together, which is remarkable and really heartening.

Rebecca
Wow. Nat, I feel like we’re in a big bad ‘no’ city.

Natalie
I was going to say, we’re in the wrong place, Bec.

Rebecca
We are so in the wrong place. We could be living happy.

Natalie
Denver.

Rebecca
Yeah, in Boulder. Sharon, can you… do you feel like singing something?

Sharon
Sure.

Rebecca
Just before time runs out, because hey everyone at home — now we’re on Zoom. So we need to hear you sing before it runs out.

Sharon
Sure. This is a little design that I know that the folks at home can’t see. So I make stickers that sing, as well, and everything uses a QR code as opposed to a plastic chip, which lets me make a lot of fun things sing. This says, “I’m going to love you till the cows come home,” and you can see two little cows happily in their house. Then it says, “And then I’m going to love you again.”

Rebecca
Can you send a picture of that?

Sharon
Yes, absolutely. When you scan the QR code, it sings. There’s a guitar and a fiddle right here, and it just says, “I’m going to love you till the cows come home. And then I’m going to love you again. I’m going to love you till pigs can fly and fire turns to ice and then. I’m going to love you till the man in the moon fondues with the sprite in the glen. Yes, I’m going to love you till the cows come home. And then I’m going to love you again.” So puns, optimism, introverted nerdiness, but all in —

Natalie
Wait, hold it right there. I’m taking a picture of this little lovely moment, because that’s so sweet. Sharon, you’re such a gift. I didn’t know that I was going to enjoy this conversation after the gong show that has been our technological debacle today. But ending on that little song was super.

Rebecca
Yeah. I think it’s an interesting thing because you might not know that you are talking to two — ok Nat, you’re not going to like this word, just get ready for it, ok?

Natalie
I’m preparing.

Rebecca
Curmudgeonly — sometimes…

Natalie
No. That’s highly accurate.

Rebecca
We probably balk at the word ‘optimism,’ but yes, we need it. We need optimism and some, how did you say it? Geeky…

Sharon
Introverted nerdiness?

Rebecca
Introverted nerdiness or something. Do you know who would love this so much is my daughter — my eight-year-old — and I think Frankie, right? Wouldn’t they love it?

Natalie
They would love it!

Rebecca
They would be like, “Oh my gosh!” There’s something so pure in it, and they get so frustrated because mommy and Natalie will always go have these huge dark discussions. I think they just get exhausted from them. Violet’s just like, “Oh, are you guys talking?”

Natalie
And we just dance.

Rebecca
Yeah, just say some happy things and have a happy thought. So thanks for trying to be that in the world. In some ways, you had to say ‘no’ to, as you said, a competitive New York Life that in some ways we think is very glamorous. But you had to say a ‘no’ to make a ‘yes,’ which is really inspiring. What is the thing that we yearn for that is perhaps simpler, or not as curmudgeonly, Nat?

Sharon
All the flavors are great. I know we talked earlier about “Why Smile Songs?,” but this is exactly why. Everything that just happened is why the company is called Smile Songs, because I’m sort of willing to go out there and be vulnerable and nerdy and joyful. If it sparks a smile, then my job is done. What I especially love is kids and families and people just enjoying this together. I’m just willing to be the dork that will bring happiness into your life. It’s my job.

Natalie
You can send us the bill for this great therapy session, because it has been lovely.

Sharon
That’s awesome. This has been a blast. It’s been so nice speaking with you both.

Rebecca
Yeah. Thank you for your time, and thanks for your patience as we worked through our moment together.

Sharon
That’s the whole thing — that was life, right? That’s real life, and I think that’s where friendships come from. We’ll meet up in five years and be like, “Remember the time we had that software…? And it said — I don’t remember what it said. And then we had to Zoom, but it was the school board Zoom. And now we’re here.”

Natalie
Then we all needed a beer.

Sharon
We all needed a beer. Yeah, so it was a pleasure, and let’s stay in touch.

Rebecca
Yes! Bye.

Natalie
Bye!

Sharon
Ciao! Bye.