Rebecca
Hey Nat.

Natalie
Hey Bec. Good morning.

Rebecca
Good morning. This is ambitious, what we’re doing. I have a lower voice.

Natalie
You do, in the morning. It’s downright sexy.

Rebecca
Ok, so it’s early, because we’re at the farm for Family Day weekend. We had to get up early to record this.

Natalie
Well, it was either this or we go out and record in the car.

Rebecca
Suddenly the car in the afternoon is seeming like way more fun.

Natalie
Don’t you remember when we did that one recording in the car in the summer and you got so hot?

Rebecca
And I started to sweat?

Natalie
No, I think you were gonna faint. This would have been a different version, because it would have been in the car in the cold. So really, there’s no one way.

Rebecca
So we might just erupt in weird peals of laughter.

Natalie
Or you’ll just hear different sounds, because it is very difficult to control nine people coming out of various doorways.

Rebecca
I need to paint a picture of the farm, because when you say ‘farm,’ you probably have in your head ambling old charming buildings.

Natalie
Like Little House on the Prairie.

Rebecca
Little House on the Prairie, and then animals are something — which is just all wrong, it’s not the picture. It’s all great, and I love it, but it’s just not the picture. The house is a fre-pab —

Natalie
Prefab.

Rebecca
A fre-pab! That’s also going to be a problem in the morning, because I might find my words a lot slower. It’s a prefab house — that is, when we moved into it.

Natalie
I think it was built in the 70s.

Rebecca
60s, 70s. It had this weird brown paint — oh, yeah, we talked about that. I don’t know if we’ve aired that episode. But this really nasty brown paint everywhere, and all these crazy homemade curtains.

Natalie
It basically looked like death.

Rebecca
Like something out of a horror movie. Now we’ve done all that we can. So we painted everything white. And we got rid of the curtains.

Natalie
Some fresh blinds.

Rebecca
We haven’t done any renos, partly because we don’t have any money right now to do any renos — but also, Simon likes to take everything slow, so slow.

Natalie
And we’re really focused on the outdoors, right?

Rebecca
Yes, we did a lot on the outdoor space. We planted a huge garden, so it is idyllic outside. But all to say, when we have nine people here for Family Day weekend, we’re really on top of each other.

Natalie
Yes. You know, we’re close.

Rebecca
And we’re also a very intense family, so when it comes to cooking…

Natalie
Food means a lot. In fact, we even said if we were to invite anybody up here, we’d just send them home if food didn’t, you know…

Rebecca
If food didn’t matter.

Natalie
Then why be here?

Rebecca
If you don’t take food seriously, you can’t come, because you won’t fit in.

Natalie
I made ceviche for dinner, and there was an air of discontent that my peppers weren’t spicy enough.

Rebecca
Well Nat, you were bringing that air, because you kept talking about it? You had also hyped up the brilliance of the peppers you had purchased.

Natalie
I know, fuck. It was so frustrating.

Rebecca
And then your peppers continue to be mild.

Natalie
I know. I don’t understand. I actually don’t know how to fix that, because I now have like 18 peppers sitting in my fridge of this supposedly super hot pepper package.

Rebecca
Well, we’re growing some for you this summer.

Natalie
Yeah.

Rebecca
I also wanted to say, one interesting thing that we have done this weekend is we watched two movies.

Natalie
Not movies, films.

Rebecca
Films. I can’t tell you how good I feel about that.

Natalie
Clifford went to bed the other night going, “My mind has been exercised.”

Rebecca
I feel so good about it. Yes, I hear you Clifford. So we watched Power of the Dog. The Jane Campion Oscar-nominated film.

Natalie
Was excellent.

Rebecca
So excellent. Nat, say something else about it.

Natalie
You obviously don’t want spoilers. It’s set in Montana, so you get some really wild, sprawling scenery. The Montana piece was interesting to me, because that is technically where mom’s family, when they came to the US, I think that’s where they initially showed up. So there is some Montana history.

Rebecca
I’ve heard Montana in our history. I did feel connected to that film, strangely.

Natalie
So the psychological warfare, I would say, was what underpinned the film in terms of the relationships. There are these two brothers and then there’s this one woman. The kind of energy that underscored the whole film, which was anger between the two of them, the simmering anger that was present in this massive landscape, I thought was really powerful. And interesting, because very different than the farmhouse, right? Here, there’s no anger, but the energy is lots of people on top of each other. In that space, it’s massive, this landscape, and yet the two of them couldn’t get space from each other, in this really strange way. Even though they weren’t even (most of the time) around each other.

Rebecca
And they never said anything straight.

Natalie
No, everything was said sideways. So anyways, that was very interesting, and I thought there was something really beautiful in the story. Again, no spoilers, but the story does center also around another main character, which would be that woman’s son, and I thought that his strength was a beautiful thing to watch.

Rebecca
Yeah, he was a really interesting character. And then last night, I wanted to further my exploration of films. So I got us to watch…

Natalie
An hour and a half of a five hour film.

Rebecca
Dad just left. He just got up and left. You and I said, “Let’s just watch a little bit.” I think maybe knowing he wasn’t going to get to the end, that he just wasn’t. It was called Happy Hour by Ryusuke Hamaguchi. His film Drive My Car is up for an Oscar nom, so I was trying to explore this filmmaker.

Natalie
To know a little bit about his style, yeah.

Rebecca
And also I have Criterion Channel, but I’ve never used it.

Natalie
So all these art films are just calling to you.

Rebecca
But that one was interesting.

Natalie
I think it was so fascinating. You and Clifford are definitely the most into it. For Clifford, it was very much nostalgia, because it was bringing him back to his decade of living in Japan, so he was definitely sensing lots of memories of a certain time.

Rebecca
I really appreciated how into it he was. It’s just very slow moving.

Natalie
Meditative, almost.

Rebecca
Just a completely different way of telling a story.

Natalie
That’s a really good way of putting it. The story was definitely being told, but just not edited.

Rebecca
It was a documentary-style telling, almost, but without saying that. We didn’t go in thinking it was a documentary.

Natalie
Right. I mean, I bet you one could tape one of my classes. If somebody just had the camera going the whole time, one could potentially catch many, many moments between students and between…

Rebecca
That would be so good.

Natalie
But to actually have it though, would also be filled with many moments.

Rebecca
I would enjoy it so much, just watching weird, unedited moments.

Natalie
Well, that says something lovely about your ways of just observing the world. You do like to, you know…

Rebecca
Eavesdrop?

Natalie
Well, there’s the eavesdropping thing, which is fun because you learn about people. But also, I think you do see the small finite moments and do something with them in your mind. In fact, you might say “Why? Why does that person do that?” I don’t know, maybe you don’t. That is what we were going to talk about today.

Rebecca
Well, I certainly do say that line, you know it. My voice has just gotten even lower.

Natalie
Was that a good segue? I thought I did that really beautifully.

Rebecca
That was a great segue. So basically, we wanted to…

Natalie
Use today to try to touch back on something.

Rebecca
Yeah, we’re checking in on Episode 11, where we brought each other two surprise problems to reframe. It was very exciting. It’s a completely exciting episode.

Natalie
We had ten minutes. I think you set a timer. You might have done 15 minutes.

Rebecca
I suggested setting a timer again right now, and you didn’t like that.

Natalie
No, I was like, “No! Let’s just do it.”

Rebecca
Which is so weird, because sometimes you like constraints, and then sometimes you confuse me and you don’t like constraints.

Natalie
You called me a rebel, so I’m going to embrace that. It is 7:45 in the morning, Rebecca. The big constraint was just getting me up here.

Rebecca
Arriving, so there were to be no additional constraints. Ok, so just starting — in Episode 11, the problem I brought to you was that I am obsessed with the question “Why?” I wanted to examine that.

Natalie
Because you didn’t feel like it was doing you much good. It wasn’t helping to ask the question of like, why people were reacting in the way that they did whatever the situation, because you weren’t able to get an answer. So you’re just left with it in your head.

Rebecca
Yeah. So now we wanted to just find out how that’s going.

Natalie
Yeah. I remember saying to you a suggestion that you might consider recognizing — in that you’re an observer of others and of yourself — recognize in yourself that you are asking that question “Why?” of a moment. Then setting almost like a timer, whether it was literal timer (I don’t know if you wanted to pull out your phone), but it was definitely like, “I’m going to give this five minutes, I’m going to get this ten minutes, I’m going to give this a walk’s worth of time, but then I’m going to end it. I’m going to silo that moment, and I’m not going to give it any more energy,” — to quote your workout lady.

Rebecca
Yes.

Natalie
So how did that go?

Rebecca
Well, I think I haven’t always been aware all the time — like, “Am I doing it or not?” But at the same time, I was lying in bed last night, and I said to Simon, “Do you think I’m still doing that ‘Why’ thing I do?” And his perception was, “I would say you’ve dialed that down 20%.”

Natalie
Oh, really? That’s interesting. Sorry, I’m crossing my legs, you can hear it. Go ahead, keep going.

Rebecca
In which case I’m going to take a sip of coffee. That was very satisfying elixir. Nat told me I had to turn my head if I was ever going to take a sip of coffee.

Natalie
No one wants to hear slurping.

Rebecca
No one wants to hear that, it’s rude. Internally, I did have a sense that I’ve been asking it a little less. So I haven’t been bringing up the same stories over and over.

Natalie
That’s brilliant. I’m so happy for you.

Rebecca
Because inevitably, they end up down the same path. In some ways, I think it’s just an indulgence almost, to go down that path — because I’m not going to have the answer at the end, so why am I going down the path? But there’s something — the feedback loop of those feelings, I like to get riled up. Is there something in when you ask the question, “Why?” — are you always going to end up as the victim in that story? Do you think that is…

Natalie
I think it depends on the story. “Why can I not get the peppers I want? I am the victim.”

Rebecca
Ok — big life stories about your own journey. The question, “Why did this happen?” — that’s the story that comes into my head. So I don’t think about, “Why did I not get the peppers?” Or Simon was using this example with me last night, “Why did you break the glass?” I don’t think I would use ‘why’ in those situations. I’m not trying to blame somebody else, but I like to bring the blame in in my own stories. So, “Why did that happen?” “What did you do to me,” or “What did I…”

Natalie
“What did I do to deserve this?”

Rebecca
Yeah, I make it a bit victim-y. I think I’m doing it — according to Simon — 20% less. I don’t know if I could have attributed that number to it, but I do think I’m telling some of these stories less because I’m directing my energy more towards the things I’m making. The art I’m making, I think I’m channeling some of that “Why?” into characters. Do you see it? I really like feedback, Nat. Do you see it?

Natalie
I mean, yeah, I guess so. Until we thought to do this episode, I hadn’t actually thought about it again, because it was your problem to work through for you. We had also promised each other that we weren’t going to monitor, right? So I took that part to heart and I just didn’t. I wasn’t going to observe you that way. But I definitely do think that we haven’t had lots and lots of conversations about the same things for a while. There’s a time, when one is going through a thing — whatever that thing is —where the conversation around that challenge is more present. Because simply that’s just where one is at. That’s what I imagine, in the various things I’ve navigated. I could definitely say that you are further away from various challenges, and so those conversations are not coming up as much.

Rebecca
Is it just the passing of time? This is something for me to probe — even though I’d like you to just tell me the answer, but I know it’s for me to do this work. Has time just passed, and something feels less painful? Or am I growing in my awareness of not continually asking questions that don’t serve me? That’s what I keep thinking about.

Natalie
I think it’s both. I do think that time has to be a part of…

Rebecca
Time is so great. Just passing time.

Natalie
Yeah, and to be given distance from something. So much has been written about that, so many poems.

Rebecca
Time is also not great. Getting older.

Natalie
Oh, yeah, then there’s that!

Rebecca
Which you just said — you touched your face this morning, as we sat down, and you said…

Natalie
“This zit of mine is doing different things than it would have in my 20s.” There is a different sort of experience with the time passing there. But that might be for another episode. Because we could do a whole thing about that.

Rebecca
We keep talking about aging, how we should talk about that.

Natalie
Anyways, I think that’s cool. I think that’s really cool that you’ve got the time passing piece, and then you also have just actually being a bit more aware. I really think self-awareness is a huge part of it, even just the language used. For example, this past week, Frankie was playing a game — he and Clifford were playing a video game. And for some reason, at seven, Frankie did something quote unquote wrong with his character. He had used the mouse, and then he held up his hand that had touched the mouse and he went, “This is the hand of failure!” And Clifford was like, “What?!” Because he was so horrified that even if, in some way, Frankie was trying to be funny with it…

Rebecca
That is funny.

Natalie
Because it’s funny, and he’s a funny kid. But I also think it was for Clifford definitively — he was like, “I will not let this go,” as in that sort of self-deprecating talk is not healthy, and the language we use about ourselves is powerful. So again, what does it mean to strike a balance in Frankie’s vocab as he continues to get older — between being funny and witty, but also not turning the humor on himself, like making himself the butt of his own joke all the time? Because that could go down the road of being negative, right? I mean, there were books written about ‘the power of no,’ and all that — so to take away the power from ‘why’ has been an interesting thing for you then, right? Because if you have changed the language in any way, I think that is something.

Rebecca
Although it is interesting how your body and your mind can relapse? I find that I can witness that in myself. I was telling you about how I was tempted to start searching up people on social media, which I know would have an effect on me. A powerful effect, a negative one. I was in the middle of a stressful situation, doing something work-wise, and in the middle of that situation, I grabbed my phone and was ready to add to my stress by searching people up. Isn’t that weird? So my body was primed for stress, and I was about to add to it. Just because I’m now acting quickly and reacting — it was reaction. But I was so happy in that moment. I consciously stopped and said, “This is not going to help you,” and I didn’t do it. So I’m relieved and encouraging myself, even in those small moments, when I have one moment when I don’t react — because then I know I can do that again.

Natalie
That’s amazing.

Rebecca
Thank you Nat, let’s have a hug.

Natalie
I’m not hugging you because we might bump something, and then we’d have a tech potential. But I do remember reading about the addiction to our devices, which is separate from what you’re describing — but actually maybe not so separate. The number was (in a study) that people would touch their phones, something like 248 times — that was the average number in a day. That’s a lot — that’s hundreds!

Rebecca
That’s a lot of touches.

Natalie
That’s a lot of check. So that is not surprising — we are already addicted to these devices, and so to reach for the addiction object in the midst of a moment of stress, is that any different than reaching for a cigarette, reaching for a glass of wine — something that is already a part of a potential problem for a person.

Rebecca
I feel I want to get that more under control, just this obsessive checking of email.

Natalie
But you did it though, and that’s such a huge win, because that is winning over a couple things happening.

Rebecca
But I want to win more!

Natalie
That’s a good goal.

Rebecca
Ok, thanks Nat. Good check-in.

Natalie
Yeah, I’m happy for you.

Rebecca
Ok, let’s look at you. Ok. Can I read to you what you had said?

Natalie
Only if it’s interesting,

Rebecca
Well Nat, I find you always fascinating. So you had said in Episode 11, that you were dealing with “generally, a sense of dissatisfaction that I can’t quite shake, and I am not used to that. I’m used to being able to shake it and be ok, and it not just be words — like, to actually feel ok. I am struggling. So there, that’s what I’m feeling.” That’s nice.

Natalie
You like it when I’m vulnerable.

Rebecca
And then I had suggested you talking to my therapist, and you went on to say that you were feeling resistant to making that call.

Natalie
I never called. I did keep the text message that you have sent me with the number. I am not, again, opposed to at some point doing it — but there have been so many other calls that I’ve had to make, and so many various things. I was honoring the feeling in my body of imagining having to schedule in something — like scheduling a conversation with someone that would take me away from all the other things I feel like I’m having to do — and it didn’t feel good.

Rebecca
It just felt like another duty?

Natalie
It felt like a duty and I was like, “I don’t think this is the right headspace to be in, if that’s what it feels like, because then I’ll be edgy.” I remember going to mom’s osteopath, and I was already a little bit hesitant about it anyways, because of the whole standing and ‘not-touching’ touching.

Rebecca
Oh, was it COVID time?

Natalie
No, but osteos — it’s a science I don’t get. But it was also where it was located — I was working at Humber at the time, and this guy’s office was at Yonge and Eg, so I’m somehow supposed to drive, on my lunch, to Yonge and Eglinton from Rexdale. It was just all wrong, everything about it was wrong. So by the time I’d even drive back to work, I was so tense.

Rebecca
I hope you called mom, Nat.

Natalie
Oh, I did. I was like, “Mom, this isn’t working.” It was interesting.

Rebecca
You wouldn’t have said it like that, because that sounded really fun and caszh.

Natalie
Oh, there was nothing fun or caszh about this. I do remember trying to be zen about it, but it was very difficult. Everything about it just felt stressful. You know what, I tried the thing, it didn’t work in that headspace. Maybe it would be different if I was retired from this specific life of mine right now as a teacher and I had more open space in my schedule.

Rebecca
Ok, because I did want to say — the osteopath is different, but now, I think everyone does their therapy sessions over Zoom.

Natalie
Right. But even that, if one has just spent (like me) a full day on Zoom with four classes — literally four Zoom meetings for 75 minutes each — then to now imagine going back on for another Zoom meeting doesn’t feel like self-care in the headspace I’m in right now. But it might if I wasn’t doing those four Zoom meetings every day. Again, it’s not a no, but I did recognize this wasn’t…

Rebecca
It sounds like a no!

Natalie
It’s a ‘not right now.’ So that did happen — which I’m going to say was me honouring my feelings. There is something about the vulnerability of naming what my body was feeling, and not feeling like I had a duty to you — or the podcast even, right? Like, “Oh fuck, what if I haven’t done the thing I said I was going to do, and then all of our listeners are now disappointed.”

Rebecca
Send you shaming emails.

Natalie
Send little Instagram messages, like, “What the?!”

Rebecca
“I came here to look up to you.”

Natalie
“What happened?!” So that, in some ways, I could probably say was a good decision. But didn’t you give me some other suggestions? I feel like you did. I want to get to those, because there’s some wins.

Rebecca
I think I suggested my class. My exercise, called The Class. How did that go, Nat? Nat; So, I didn’t do The Class, but I did lots of exercise.

Rebecca
And you’ve been jumping on the trampoline, which I really like.

Natalie
Yes, and I’ve been really happy about that.

Rebecca
She did a TikTok, you guys, of jumping on the trampoline — it’s so cute. You’re so cute, Nat! Really. I hadn’t watched it with the volume up…

Natalie
Oh, so that you could hear Frankie’s voice?

Rebecca
But when I turn the volume up, it’s even cuter! Ok, but how did the meditating go?

Natalie
So that has been happening, which has been really cool. When I was pregnant, Clifford and I would meditate together. He was like, “Let’s try this, maybe this will feel good.” I was like, “Ok, fine,” not really thinking it would be great — and then it ended up being really useful. I hadn’t meditated in a long time, you gave me that app, I was doing the app, that was seemingly working — but you and Tamara were both a little bit affronted by the idea that I was meditating whilst driving, because then it’s like you’re kind of defeating the purpose.

Rebecca
I hadn’t heard about that.

Natalie
Ok, well Tamara didn’t like it! She’s like, “That’s kind of not the point.” I’m like, “Right — because one can’t close one’s eyes.”

Rebecca
Also, you’re very active when you’re driving. But whatever. Baby steps, this is all about iterations. Your next iteration: “I will not do it while driving.”

Natalie
But what we have been doing as a family — and again, Clifford’s not a Christian, I like to pray at night with Frankie. Clifford as a meditator, as more of a Buddhist kind of leaning, the three of us say goodnight together and so we’ve decided that it would be cool for the last few months to actually do some breathing practice as a group of three. We honor his tradition, and then I say a little prayer so we’re honoring the Christian tradition, and then it means that Frankie’s fallen asleep, but we’ve all experienced this togetherness thing. The whole thing takes five minutes, but it’s been really powerful because I never lead it. That’s what Clifford’s doing — so either he leads the breathing, or Frankie does. I really get to just experience them guiding. It’s so simple. The best is when Frankie’s like, “Ok, breathe it in. Let it go.” He does it every night. If he’s too tired, he’s like, “Daddy, you take it.”

Rebecca
That’s cute.

Natalie
But it’s so meditative, to just do the breathing. I feel like — going back to that gratitude practice piece that we talked through — maybe it’s not the story of the doing of it, but actually just the physical sensation of taking that breath in every night. A night we’re Frankie’s tired, we only do three breaths. Most nights, we try and do five, and then you hold for 50. So you breathe for three, hold for 30. Breathe for five, hold for 50. So on the night where I hold for 30 or 50, my mind goes completely blank because I just have to count to 50 to hold my breath.

Rebecca
There’s no oxygen.

Natalie
There’s no oxygen, exactly. There’s no room! It’s wonderful. And so I really do think that that meditative experience with them — it’s like coming up with my own app. Honestly, who could not meditate to a seven-year-old going, “Breathe it in. Let it go.”

Rebecca
That’s so good. What is the next iteration for you? Did we say that for me?

Natalie
No, you just announced it.

Rebecca
It doesn’t matter. What’s yours? So I’d love that — that’s so sweet, and I feel inspired to do more breathing with violet and Elsie. Elsie might be too late — she’ll just be, “Mama, why would I do that with you?” But what’s your next iteration? Because if our lives are iterations, Moments that keep evolving, we change, is there something you’re going to add on or evolve when we check in at episode…

Natalie
45?

Rebecca
Yeah.

Natalie
That was something you and I agreed on yesterday, when we were talking about this right? It didn’t have to be — when we went back to what we had said in Episode 11 — it wasn’t like now, because we hadn’t done it that way, the thing hadn’t happened.

Rebecca
It wasn’t like your failure hand.

Natalie
Yeah, it wasn’t the hand of failure, it was how are we making it new? So I like that idea of the iteration — an iteration of your ‘why’ and an iteration of my meditation. I don’t know what it’s going to look like. But I do think that maybe as a little family, we’ll get up to ten. Maybe I would do it on my own, just to keep showing that.

Rebecca
I like that, Nat. I was hoping for that.

Natalie
You leaned in.

Rebecca
I like how you really thought about the possibility.

Natalie
I might do that.

Rebecca
You might love it, considering you love that blankness. It’s exciting to hear you talk about the blankness that you love. You laughed when I said before that I love to just stare — sitting on a couch and just staring.

Natalie
Oh my gosh, you know what I did? I meditated whilst cleaning my fiddle-fig. What do I call it?

Rebecca
Fiddle-leaf?

Natalie
I think it might be fiddle-leaf fig.

Rebecca
We still don’t know.

Natalie
You told me, “Just do it for an hour with coconut oil.”

Rebecca
Cleaning your tree for an hour, did I say to do that?

Natalie
That’s what you told me to do at one point, and I laughed at you — no, I smiled, but I might have giggled.

Rebecca
You just said, “I’m not doing that,” in your head.

Natalie
I was like, “That’s never happening, ever.” Anyways, I saw this guy on Instagram who does all these health hacks, and he’s anti-waste. So basically you could clean a plant — one with big leaves like that — with a banana peel. So you’ve eaten your banana, you now have this peel, instead of just throwing it away, use it — because the wax inside the peel will take up all of the dust on the leaves.

Rebecca
And you did that while meditating.

Natalie
Well, I ended up meditating as I was doing it. I didn’t go in thinking I was going to. But I did think of you. I was like, “It’s not coconut oil, but this is something.” And then I just kept going. There were so many leaves, and it was a very meditative process. So anyways, I thought of that, and so that to me feels like an iteration of somebody else’s suggestion that I made my own — and meditative in the process.

Rebecca
I like it, Nat.

Natalie
Now how about you, what’s your iteration?

Rebecca
I’m not sure.

Natalie
Pregnant pause.

Rebecca
More babies.

Natalie
No.

Rebecca
I think I want to do this exploration of just talking less. Not on the podcast, just in my life I feel — and we should wrap this up, because we’ve really been talking about trying to go shorter. If anyone wants to comment on the length of our podcast, just send us a message saying “Yes, please stop at 30 minutes,” or “We want more.” Because this is an ongoing debate between Nat and I — she’s like, “Shorter is better!” I’m like, “I can’t stop!” Which is maybe why I’m thinking about talking so much. I think sometimes I’m really good at talking. Just talking.

Natalie
What are you talking about, like talking something through?

Rebecca
I don’t know. Just more silence. I don’t know what it would look like, but it might just be ask a question and then walk away, just shut up after. As opposed to talk talk talk talk. Even sometimes Simon will be looking for the space after the question I’ve just asked. I think he’s looking for the space to answer, and his face sometimes bugs me because it’s all contorted, which tells me that I’m talking too much.

Natalie
That’s interesting, that’s how you interpret it?

Rebecca
Well, just that he’s waiting. The story I see in that moment, or I’m telling myself, is, “You asked me a question, and now there’s no room to answer the question, as you’re still talking.” So I think it’s kind of a funny thing to say on a podcast, which is all about talking, but I want to explore what that would feel like to ask a question and not try to now justify the question. Have the courage if I’m asking a question or making a statement to just say it, and then leave it.

Natalie
“I have brought this to the table. I’m laying it down.”

Rebecca
As opposed to trying to make it really comfortable. Does that make sense at all?

Natalie
Yeah, totally.

Rebecca
I think there’s something half courageous, but half pulling back that I do.

Natalie
That’s very interesting.

Rebecca
That I think I’d like to get more clear.

Natalie
Well, I love that. That’s the next iteration of Rebecca’s ‘why’ — less about the ‘why’ and perhaps more about the idea that it’s a question. I like that.

Rebecca
About how I ask questions?

Natalie
Isn’t that what you’re saying? Am I hearing you right?

Rebecca
You are, but I wanted you to sum it up in a really nice way, Nat.

Natalie
I think I just did.

Rebecca
Just say it again?

Natalie
I think that is less about the ‘why’ going forward for you. It’s less about the single word, and more about the actual practice of asking questions. Letting the question itself just happen and be, without feeling the need to couch it or justify it, in other words. Oh, my gosh, I just did that — so literally, “You’re not going to couch it in other words,” but it’s almost like you’re saying, “I will not say, ‘so in other words,” and then go forward. Oh fuck, I’m so good sometimes! You know what, there is something about doing this at eight o’clock in the morning.

Rebecca
Because our brains are really raw? But now look, now we’ve gone 36 minutes. Oh, dear goodness me.

Natalie
I loved this, that was a fun experience Bec. But in that we always love talking with each other (because that’s kind of what this whole thing’s about), at the same time, we’ve wanted to use our space to also consider elevating and lifting up other women doing amazing new things. So I had suggested to you, let’s do a highlight series — where either a friend of ours or somebody we learn about who is a woman in business brings her origin story to the table, so that we can share that on the podcast, and then in our newsletter, because we’re finding that people enjoy the summaries of the episodes that come out in the newsletter, but also my recipes just because that’s fun. People have tried a few of them, so that’s been fun to hear. So we wanted to add one more element.

Rebecca
And I’m sure you had a really cute name for this segment. We’ll think of it later.

Natalie
Yeah, I have to remember. I do think I wrote something down, on some doc.

Rebecca
It wasn’t, like, “Wonderful Women.” It’s definitely not that.

Natalie
Not that. Anyways, it’s our friend Bridget Sarpong who we used to hang out with at church because she used to sing with us in the praise team. You and she together threw us the most lovely baby shower, all those years ago.

Rebecca
She was part of your baby shower?

Natalie
Oh my goodness, she planned it with you. She’s the one that got my cake.

Rebecca
Oh, she did that cake! Yeah. I don’t remember her planning — doesn’t matter, this is a digression.

Natalie
Well, that part of it with you. She was like, “I want to help.”

Rebecca
Oh yeah, she sent that amazing cake.

Natalie
Yeah. And she didn’t do the cake — she went and had a friend of hers who makes cakes do the cake.

Rebecca
But yes, now I remember going back and forth with her about…

Natalie
The cake and the decorations, right? Yeah, you were very invested and I really appreciate the energy you put into that. But what was lovely with Bridget about that one, just in my memory of her, is that she at the time was also going to lift other women up. Her using her friend’s cake making business wasn’t just because it was going to be a pretty cake. It was because this was now her celebrating another woman who was doing another entrepreneurial work. So I feel like there’s something cool. So anyways, Bridget and her husband and their little baby Zola, they all live on (most of the time, anyways) Manitoulin Island. I get excited about Manitoulin because Dad and I have done lots of diving across from Manitoulin up in Tobermory. Have you ever been over to Manitoulin?

Rebecca
I think maybe in our…

Natalie
Like when you were younger?

Rebecca
Yeah. But I can’t remember it, so I would love to go.

Natalie
Yes. I want to go back, and I specifically want to go and visit Bridget and Matthew’s business, which is called The Mutchmor. The Mutchmor is a gallery and a gift shop and a café, and it has rental lofts upstairs — so you can literally go and rent their loft and stay there. It sleeps four, so a little family could go and stay there. They’re located in Providence Bay, on Manitoulin Island. I think that what’s so cool about their business is that it had actually started back when Bridget was on her own, before she had met Matthew. She had started a tea company called Steep & Jar, and then he was already running a really amazing fish and chips business on the island, they started dating, and then basically they looked at each other and went, “How can we bring all of our business ideas together?” And so they did, and that’s what The Mutchmor has become.

So her tea is sold at their café counter, and his fish and chips shop is still across the little street from where The Mutchmor is located. That whole gallery experience has been running like clockwork on this island for the last couple years, and I just think that there’s something really amazing about that — watching a friend of ours having grown something from nothing. I remember when she and Matthew were vetting artists to paint a really massive mural on the side of The Mutchmor, because it was a massive building. They had an up-and-coming Anishinaabe artist (if I remember correctly) come in and paint this really beautiful mural. So again, just lifting up different artists in the community that they were actually living in. So just lovely, lovely stuff. We are going to post a picture of it in our newsletter, and one can go look on their website, because that’s really all you need to do.

Rebecca
How could we support her?

Natalie
Yeah. She said, basically, “Support me by coming.” So one could actually think to plan something in terms of an Ontario-based holiday in the summer.

Rebecca
Oh, because there’s tax credits.

Natalie
Yeah, that’s right, if you stay and travel local. So that’s worth investigating. But also, just following them on Instagram. So we’ll make sure that their Instagram handle is in the newsletter this week.

Rebecca
So simple. You can at least follow them.

Natalie
Oh yeah, so easy. And then you get to just see somebody else’s amazing dream come to life. I mean, she’s younger than us. I just think that’s so cool that she’s said, “I’m going to do this thing,” and then the thing became a thing! That to me is amazing. So yay Bridget, and thank you for sharing. She and I had a really long conversation that we hoped we would have used a chunk of in today’s podcast, but our tech got in the way, and she has a baby. So babies control the world, and that I completely respect.

Rebecca
Yes they do. And so they should.

Natalie
So anyways, yay for Bridget and yay for The Mutchmor. We will post all those things in the newsletter. If, again, you haven’t had a chance to sign up for the newsletter, please do send us a quick message. If you can’t find it, you could just send us a quick message on Instagram, or on Twitter even, and just say “What’s the link?” and one of us will send it back to you.

Rebecca
Oh yes, we will.

Natalie
Or you can just go watch me dance.

Rebecca
On TikTok, oh my gosh. It’s our most popular video, you guys. I thought I was doing well, and then Nat came on and started jumping on that trampoline, and all the eyes went. Ok, thanks for meeting me early in the morning. I really now need to go drink the rest of this coffee.

Natalie
I hope you warm it up.

Rebecca
It’s cold now.

Natalie
Ugh, iced coffee.

Rebecca
But I don’t care.

Natalie
I love you, Bec.

Rebecca
I love you.

Natalie
Bye.