Rebecca
Welcome to Sister On! Hey Nat.

Natalie
Hey, Bec.

Rebecca
I missed you.

Natalie
I missed you. It’s been like four, maybe five whole days.

Rebecca
She was at the farm with me, and then she went home to get her hair dyed.

Natalie
Yeah, and it’s really blonde and I’m really happy. So I’m going to spend half of this podcast experience just staring at myself in the spring. After a year, man, a year of this!

Rebecca
Yeah, it looks good. Meanwhile, mine is like — you told me to comb it down so it would be more slick. Embrace the slick. I literally haven’t washed it in three weeks.

Natalie
I was like, “You need to channel Bella Hadid.” Anyways, there you go.

Rebecca
So we’re sitting here with our guest. Well, technically we’re not sitting together, but you got it. Our guest today is Craig Pike. Born and raised in St. John’s, Newfoundland, Craig moved to Toronto in 2004 to study at the George Brown Theatre School. A Dora-nominated actor, Craig started Craig’s Cookies in 2013 and now has four locations across the GTA, as well as expansion across Canada. He has been the artistic director of that choir for over ten years, and is the proud puppy dad to Jonathan the cor-gee.

Natalie
Corgi.

Rebecca
I knew I should practice that one! What’s it called, Nat?

Natalie
Corgi.

Rebecca
Craig, hello! Should I just read that bio again, you guys?

Craig
Oh my god, no. Jesus no. That was perfect.

Natalie
I thought that was perfect.

Rebecca
But corgi, why do you guys both know that? Craig, you know it because that’s your dog. Nat, why do you know everything?

Natalie
I know things. I don’t know Becca.

Rebecca
Okay, so Craig, the thing that is particularly interesting to us — all of these things are interesting — but the thing that bio doesn’t say is that you are a twin.

Craig
I am a twin.

Rebecca
Because we are titling this episode. “Twins be like.”

Craig
Twins be like, yo. Absolutely. You both look a lot alike.

Rebecca
Do we?

Craig
Yeah, you could be twins. Absolutely.

Rebecca
Yes. Twins be like, and we’re practically the same.

Natalie
And that means I get to look two years younger. Craig, do you actually know that you’re really famous now? Do you know that you’re famous because of Craig’s Cookies? The story here, the reason I know Craig is that we went to theatre school together. So that’s what I first knew you. I didn’t know you were such an entrepreneur. If someone said, “How would you like to be known in the world, as an actor or as an entrepreneur?” Would you have said, “Actor,” or do you care anymore? Just tell me things, Craig. Do you know that you’re famous? Let’s just start there.

Craig
It’s really interesting. Because, you know, I think when you work in the arts, early on in careers — and sometimes even throughout somebody’s entire career — you can have the ability, whether it be good or bad, to have such an identity connected to your success as an artist. So I think being known (or celebrity, et cetera, quote unquote) as an actor, it’s never really been something for me that I’ve been interested in. With Craig’s Cookies if you had asked me when we met in 2004, Rebecca, “Would I own a bakery?” I would say, absolutely not. No, no way, no how. So finding myself in this place right now in 2021 is really curious to me and it is landing a bit more, inside, what Craig’s Cookies has been able to do for the community in Toronto, and for people that that I’m really interested in helping — within neighborhoods, and folks that need a bit of help. So that being said, about six months ago, I was in my kitchen and I was pouring myself cereal, and I don’t know — it just hit me. I was like, “Oh my god. I’m Craig, of Craig’s Cookies. It just hit me. I was like, “I’m the guy. I’m the dude.” And it never really clicked before, that that was the case. So that’s a long-winded answer. I hope everybody’s ready for a long winter’s nap after that.

Rebecca
We like long answers for sure. But yeah, you are Craig. Which is funny, because Craig’s Cookies will come up in the most random ways. My husband, for example, he was in sales for a while, and he would bring his clients Craig’s Cookies. Did you ever see him come into your shop on Queen?

Craig
No, no.

Rebecca
I don’t know if you’re ever there. But it was so exciting for his clients, and it was so exciting for Simon — he felt really original that he was bringing this unique gift to his clients. And then I will meet people at my daughter’s school, and somehow, someone will bring Craig’s Cookies or Craig’s Cookies will come up. It’s just like, all the time. And then I always try to say, because I want to insert myself in that, “I know Craig.”

Craig
“I know Craig. This is actually my recipe.”

Rebecca
“They’re actually my cookies.”

Craig
Rebecca’s Cookies. I think there’s a ring to that.

Natalie
Well, this is the first time I’m getting to meet you. I’ve inserted myself into such a conversation before because I know you by proxy through Becca. So when my girlfriend’s husband brought home Craig’s Cookies for their anniversary, my comment was, “Oh, I know — sort of — Craig,” and it became this extended thing. So it’s like fame, it extends.

Craig
It’s like that Kevin Bacon — what’s that, the seven degrees of separation?

Natalie
Yeah, totally.

Craig
But a far less interesting version.

Natalie
Or more.

Rebecca
Seven degrees of separation from Craig — Craig’s Cookies? Oh my goodness!

Craig
That sounds like a really fun game that everybody should play. (I’m kidding, they shouldn’t!)

Rebecca
Is your family so proud of you?

Craig
They are, yeah. I think that they definitely did not see this coming, either. Yeah, they’re really really supportive.

Rebecca
Is that part of your interest in starting a shop down there?

Craig
In St. John’s? Yeah. So we’re opening up a location in St. John’s, hopefully in the next two months. Part of the cookie company’s success, I think, is me just making decisions without really thinking anything through. So I was in St. John’s two weeks ago, and like — “That can be fun!” There was an empty space next to a really cool microbrew pub kind of thing, in a really neat up-and-coming part of downtown St. John’s. And so I called my real estate agents in St. John’s and said, “Hey, listen, can we do this?” And he was like, “Ok,” so we’re gonna do it.

Natalie
That’s amazing. Cookies and beer.

Craig
Cookies and beer in Newfoundland. I mean, why not?

Natalie
That’s awesome. Is there anything about being a business owner that is related to acting for you?

Craig
Yeah. I think anything that anybody chooses to do in life, and pivots careers, or wants to do different things — anything that you’ve experienced in life will bring yourself forward into the present. So with acting, I think the gifts that I learned from that part of my life — definitely being able speak in complete sentences with confidence is one thing, as a business owner. Quote unquote “being on my voice” when hard decisions have to be made — because I know that this is a podcast, but I do have dimples everybody, and I do look kind of cute, but when you have to make the hard decisions, the dimples go away, and people are like, “Oh, wow, the cookie man actually has a backbone.” So I think definitely being assertive — theatre school and being an actor has taught me how to do that for sure. Learning how to be empathetic, and being really curious about people. I think with theatre (and you know, Rebecca), the more you act or the more you’re creative, the more you then get to know yourself. The older you get then, too, the more confidence you have in yourself. So I think part of the success of the brand of Craig’s Cookies is that I’ve been able to really make it a reflection of my ethos and myself — my queerness, my interest in developing communities and helping the community that I live in, in Toronto and different neighborhoods and stuff. I think that’s definitely been part of how the arts has influenced my ability to be a semi-successful entrepreneur. Is it ‘entre-paneur’ or ‘entre-preneur’?

Natalie
I think it depends what mood you’re in.

Rebecca
It’s “corgi,” so…

Craig
Exactly! I’m a corgi dad and an ‘entre-paneur’! I think Dorothy Ward would say it’s ‘entre-preneur.’ Dorothy Ward was Rebecca and I’s speech teacher, by the way — for context.

Natalie
No, I can imagine it!

Rebecca
Yes, she was very specific. You sound so together, Craig. But have you processed all of our theatre school trauma?

Craig
Have you?

Rebecca
Oh, no. I don’t think so.

Craig
We can talk about that.

Rebecca
I was thinking how this podcast is a lot about reframing, too. Reframing life, reframing our experiences — in some ways, what you just said is reframing theatre school in a way, like how it served you.

Craig
I think when I started theatre school, I was definitely a different human being. You know, I think we are different human beings every five seconds. I don’t know, I’ve been listening to a lot of Oprah! I think theatre school definitely was difficult for a lot of us. We learned a lot, and we were able to build a lot of really great relationships. I mean, I’m so grateful that you reached out for me to be here, and that’s something that is so awesome and amazing and lovely that came out of theatre school. I’m not sure if I experienced a lot of trauma in theatre school, but then again I’m not sure if I was open to really accessing all of the truths of what was happening while I was there. I don’t know if I was old enough or mature enough to really understand what the pedagogy of that program was at the time.

Natalie
Wow. Craig and I are the same person, Bec. He blocked it all out, you let it all in. There we go!

Rebecca
Potentially the bad pedagogy.

Craig
I think there were definitely some negative ways of inspiring creation at theatre school, that I think was not conducive to a positive learning environment.

Natalie
Wow you guys, this is awesome. I’m used to being the one that has to ask big questions and do all the reframing — but you’re just doing the work, man. This is awesome!

Craig
Deep dive! I mean, how was your experience Rebecca, how’s your time been since theatre school in processing everything that we experienced?

Rebecca
That’s good, you should throw a big question like that right back at me. I don’t know, I definitely was not a favorite in theatre school.

Craig
Neither was I, yeah.

Rebecca
I think it certainly has made me resilient. Theatre school is all about: you want the big roles. Of course. Up at my farm, there’s another theatre school person up here, Robin — in Prince Edward County.

Craig
I love Robin!

Rebecca
Yeah, I love Robin too! We were just chatting, we were having a good laugh session about the characters we played in our third year plays. I had remembered Robin being a lead, and she was like, “A lead?! No, I was like a maid, I definitely was wearing a white shirt.” And I was not a lead either. She seems to be okay with it too. She’s done very well. I think not being the favourite has caused me to dig deep and find other ways to create, so I think it’s been useful. I see a lot of myself in you. You’ve turned into this entrepreneur, and I think I’ve been pretty entrepreneurial myself, so I guess that’s useful? Would I have liked to have had some great roles, and been oohed and aahed over? I mean, I think I would have, but maybe I wouldn’t have. Maybe that’s not the best. You guys, do we want that?

Craig
I think that’s part of it. I think anybody that says that they don’t want to be oohed and aahed and, you know, be appreciated for the work that you’re doing — I think there’s a false sense of reality there. I think we all want to be appreciated for the work that we’re putting into our love. With the arts, it can be so tricky, because it’s — what’s the word, oh gosh, my brain. Objective or subjective?

Rebecca
Subjective.

Craig
Exactly. I need a dictionary. And if anybody out there in podcast land wants to send me a dictionary, 155 Dalhousie Avenue, unit 95.

Rebecca
I’m going to order a thesaurus, actually, if you’re ordering a dictionary.

Craig
Great. I love a thesaurus. Thesauruses are amazing. I have to figure out the word I want to use first, before I can actually use a thesaurus, so I need the dictionary before the thesaurus.

Rebecca
We’ll just be a team.

Craig
Yeah. But I think you’re right. I think theatre school definitely has the ability to either give you a lot of confidence, or strip a lot of confidence away — and then there’s the rebuilding of that, and finding out what kind of artist you want to be when you leave theatre school. I’m really proud of you Rebecca, for everything that you’ve done, with your film production and with the series you’ve produced. It’s really inspiring that you and Marie-Claire just took everything by what you wanted to do and ran with it.

Rebecca
Yeah. Thanks. That’s also an interesting thing, embracing where you are — and what you did do with it — as opposed to being stuck being sad about what you didn’t get. You know what I mean? I still sometimes could be like, “Oh, that hurt a little bit.” And now I feel because I didn’t get that I’m going to be stuck over there being sad, and then I can’t be happy for what has worked out, and I am building. Nat, I think you’re particularly good at reframing in that way — what do we have going on right now? What’s good here? What are you missing because you’re stuck looking back over there?

Craig
I was talking to somebody about this just the other day, funny enough. I have many parts of my life that my therapist helps me with, but one of them that I’ve been pretty good at, I think, is not feeling envy — for other artists and other people’s success.

Rebecca
But have you had to work at that? Or that’s something that naturally comes to you, that’s not something you struggle with? Or that together you have really worked at that?

Craig
You know, somebody will get a part — like, “Ahh! I wanted that part!” But I don’t sit with it. And I never have. It doesn’t affect my mental health at all. Other things do, absolutely. But that has never been a part of my journey, I think, so that has been helpful in being an actor.

Natalie
One of the things that this podcast has been about so far — and where we sort of hope to keep going with it — is focusing on our sisterly connection, because Bec and I are close, but we do a lot of this reframing and support work through our various journeys together. I’ve heard many of these conversations, right? It’s fun to get to sit in and listen to you guys work through theatre school. I was there the other day when Rebecca was chit-chatting with Robin and talking about it. And I’m sort of the observer from the outside, sipping my wine going, “Wow, I’m really happy I didn’t go there.” I had my own challenges in my own academic programs. So it’s interesting. I think I resonate with what you guys are talking about, because of sort of a… proximity to your pain, right? As a sibling. Thinking of you as a twin, I’m trying to imagine. Maybe I’m storing it in my head as something, because I’ve seen twins and movies and shows, and everybody seems so inherently connected. But is there something about being a twin that impacts your day-to-day life, and the way that you reframe and look at the world and talk about, you know, your successes and pains? I mean, is that piece a part of your processing?

Craig
Not necessarily. Keith and I’s relationship as twins are very different than what you would see in movies, and the expectation. Which is interesting, to grow up as a twin and then be expected to have a relationship with him the way that everybody else assumes twins are behaving with each other. So there’s that — which is a different podcast. He’s also in the arts, he also studied theatre at Sheridan (musical theatre program), while I was at George Brown. He went down the path after theatre school of directing and producing. As twins who are also in the same field — for me, because I can only speak for myself — I really wanted to commit to building my own career and my own identity separately.

Natalie
That’s interesting. Bec, we touched on that the other day, about the difference of us being in such separate fields. I mean, as much as I can talk about being an educator, and they talk about the entertainer in education — because you’re on stage all the time in front of people, trying to perform and make people interested in literature, or whatever it is that you’re teaching — that’s my world. It’s not the same as Becca’s space that she’s having to occupy all the time in these various production/writing spaces. So there is a nice separation to be able to engage with each other. That’s very interesting.

Rebecca
Is needing to make your identity separate from him, is that partly because you guys grew up in the same field? Grew up, meaning when you were 25?

Craig
Yeah — but I think growing up from when we were five. I think being both artistically inclined, you know? So, both very heavily involved in music, both heavily involved in theatre and dance, and also both being queer. And then not being able to be confident in ourselves, until for me in my early 20s — to actually step into my, for lack of better phrase, authentic self (thanks, Oprah). I think a lot of that, for me, was just really trying to not necessarily consciously separate myself from him, because it wasn’t a conscious thing. But it was just, you know, you had yourself as an individual, and you have yourself as a family member. And then when you’re twins, because you both look alike, there’s an expectation that you’re probably the same human being. And for me, apart from being twins, I’m just a very strong-willed human being. From an early age, I was like, “No, I need to be me. And I don’t want to be connected to this other human being.” Not on a love level, not on a family level, but just on a personality level. You know?

Natalie
Yeah. And expectation.

Craig
Exactly. People just assumed you had the same personalities, and had the same interests. Just because we were both in music, that we were able to do the same things. And that’s never been true.

Rebecca
So you guys are actually quite different.

Craig
We are very different. Yeah.

Rebecca
And he’s not as strong-willed, would you say?

Craig
I think he’s very strong-willed. I can’t really speak to that for him, but I know that for myself — and I’m talking moreso in high school — you just try to survive in high school.

Natalie
Right.

Craig
Especially if you’re an outsider of any sort. And that doesn’t mean queer, that just means you’re different, you know? You’re really just trying to get through the end of high school without getting beat up every day. Or that was my experience! So whatever I could do to do that, I did. And it was just survival. It wasn’t, like I said, a conscious decision, and part of that was separating myself a bit from him and then finding my own individuality.

Rebecca
Right, which is interesting — how defining ourselves against something is really useful for, what’s the word, individuating or self-actualizing. Like how we had to define ourselves against theatre school, so to speak. In opposition to your brother, in a way, just because you needed to be your own person. That, I think, is some excellent reframing I just did right there. That’s really really useful to have things we have to battle in a sense. He wasn’t creating a battle, there was sort of the battle for you there that you had to…

Craig
Yeah, he wasn’t creating anything I think. It was all in me, and without knowing it, just putting up boundaries. But coming through that, and working through our 20s, and now turning 40 in a couple months, I’m able to look at it in a way that is, you know, the past. And find forgiveness in myself, for separating myself from him in high school. I’m so proud of everything that he’s doing in the arts, it’s different from what I’m doing — and I would say it’s probably even more important, because he’s educating people in the way that maybe you and I should have been educated when we were in theatre school.

Natalie
Oh, that’s so beautiful.

Rebecca
What’s the Oprah thing? I mean, I love Oprah too! But how are you getting inspired? Or are you, really? Because I want to be inspired by things.

Craig
You know, the pandemic has really been a time, and…

Rebecca
It’s been a time, all right.

Craig
As a business owner, when the pandemic hit — everybody has probably figured out by now, I didn’t go to business school, and I have maybe no right in owning a business, and I’m definitely not a baker. So when the pandemic hit, I really went into panic mode to try to keep 86 employees employed, and worked every day — 12 hour days for almost nine months.

Rebecca
You have 86 employees?

Craig
We do, yeah.

Rebecca
Wow! And you say “we,” which is really exciting. That means it’s big, Craig, if you say “we.”

Craig
I guess so — but I’ve been saying “we” since it was just me because I read somewhere that it makes people think that you’re bigger than you actually are. When it was just me baking, I’m like “Craig’s Cookies! Here are Craig’s Cookies!” Actually just me, but…

Rebecca
Nat has taught me to do that! So I do that too, now. We.

Craig
Absolutely. Well, it is plural, because there’s two of you.

Natalie
In all of Becca’s artistic ventures, I’m like, “It doesn’t just have to be ‘I.’” Because in some ways, the weird thing about the “I” piece is that people can also get a bit funny about the centering of the one. Whereas as soon as you say “we,” you’re including those who are now trying to engage with you, and whatever it is that your project is — whether it’s cookies, or whether it’s the artistic piece you’re putting out to the world, via Rebecca’s writing.

Rebecca
So if it’s a newsletter or something, why not make it a “we”? Ok, but so… pandemic hard…

Craig
Pandemic was difficult, I found myself with a stage four ulcer on my esophagus last summer, and was vomiting blood everywhere — just to add some drama to the podcast. Blehh! Blehh! If you wanted some sound effects.

Rebecca
I like drama and sound effects. Is that a result of stress?

Craig
Yeah, absolutely. And acid reflux, and getting older, I think. So I found myself in hospital in the Muskokas. I mean, if you’re going to be in hospital, the Bracebridge Healthcare Center is just —

Rebecca
Is that a good one? Good to know.

Craig
Well, funny story. They thought I had pancreatitis and almost removed my pancreas. They were getting ready to bring me into surgery to remove my pancreas, and then they were like, “Oh, actually, it’s the other person in the room that has pancreatitis.” Because there was another young man in the room that was literally crying for 48 hours sweating — dying — because pancreatitis is very serious. I was sitting there just playing Angry Birds on my phone and they’re like, “You have pancreatitis,” and I’m like, “Ok,” — and there’s a young man in a lot of pain, they just confused us.

Natalie
And you weren’t twins!

Craig
And we weren’t twins. They just weren’t actually good at their job. So maybe Bracebridge Hospital in Muskoka, not so great.

Rebecca
That would have been the craziest lawsuit!

Craig
The craziest lawsuit. They’re not sponsoring me, are they?

Rebecca
You could’ve opened so many more Craig’s Cookies.

Craig
Between the jigs and the reels, I got to a point last Christmas where I was in a really toxic relationship, as well. That is no fault of either of us, just both of us were in a place where we couldn’t be present and honest with each other. Everything came to a head January first. I went on Facebook and I was like, “I need a therapist, because I have so many things in my mind in my heart that I cannot organize myself, and it’s overwhelming, and I need to stop crying.” So I went on Facebook, I was like “Anybody — I need a therapist.” A lot of people were like, “Go to my therapist, go to my therapist,” I’m like, “How do you even choose a therapist?” Then I was like, “Ok, this is what I’m going to do. If I think that person has their shit together, I’m gonna call their therapist.” There were some people that I was like, “Um, I think you’re cuckoo. So I’m not gonna go to your therapist. Because obviously, it’s not working!” I’m kidding. I’m so kidding, but I was able to start a really good working relationship with Lindsay, my therapist, in January. And it’s been so helpful. It’s been such a gift to be able to work through a lot of stuff.

Natalie
That’s brilliant.

Rebecca
And does she like Oprah as well?

Craig
Oh yeah, the question was Oprah. Like I said, I talk way too much. We haven’t talked about Oprah. There was a time there when I first started therapy that I was just searching for somebody to make me feel better, as opposed to loving myself and finding the love from within. So I was listening to like Super Soul Sundays, all the podcasts, which has a lot of good stuff. But eventually, come I think March, I was like, “I can’t listen to Oprah anymore. I can’t listen to anybody’s ideas of how I should be living my life. I can be inspired by it, but ultimately, I just need to do the work myself.” If I’m choosing to be broken open and to deal with the mess, then it’s up to me to work through it — it’s not up to Oprah’s wisdom to do that work for me. I think a lot of myself — and I feel a lot of society — self-help books are really important, but then they expect that that’s the work. That’s just the starting point. I think it’s really a journey of self-love, loving yourself and putting yourself before anybody else — not in an ego way, but in a way that the more you can love yourself, or I can love myself, then the more I can actually give to everybody else around me.

Rebecca
It’s really cool that you’re able to be that vulnerable because I could see also you now needing to be Craig, all the time. You’re Craig of Craig’s Cookies, Craig — like does Craig need to have it all together at every moment? Have you felt that pressure? I think it’s really cool to hear you name your journey. Yeah, there was this really vulnerable point, it’s still vulnerable. Like, here I am, Craig of Craig’s Cookies is like, “It’s hard for me too.”

Craig
I feel like there was a lot of pressure put on myself — by myself — to show up in a way that would make everybody happy, and not let everybody down, and try to fix everybody, and fix problems. I was able to get through that — luckily, because a lot of people sometimes don’t. I’ve been able to see, like I said, it’s just about self first, but not in an ego kind of way. I don’t even know how to say it. I was gonna say Zen Buddhist, but that’s trite for me to say because I’m not Buddhist. It’s hard to explain. I think I’m still trying to figure it out.

Natalie
That’s perfect, though. That’s exactly what I mean. That’s what we talk about on here, just the idea of processing it through. If you can do it honestly, then that means a lot. And it probably makes for a better cookie.

Craig
It makes for a better experience, for sure, for the folks that are coming in to get cookies. A big part of Craig’s Cookies is how to build community. The thing that I’m the most proud of is when I get young folks applying that are non-binary or trans and they say, “I want to work for you because I know that I’ll be going to work in a safe working environment.” It doesn’t matter how many cookies we sell or how many locations we have. If I’m still able to create a space that’s full of safety for people, then that is the most important.

Natalie
That’s wonderful. Absolutely.

Rebecca
How’s your relationship different with your sister?

Craig
I’m not very close with my sisters. Dierdre is 14 months older, and she lives in Quebec City, and she has two children, Jacob and Patrick, who I loved dearly. We don’t see each other often. She also moved away from Newfoundland when she was 20 and I was 18, so we’ve seen each other once a year for the last 20 years. We don’t communicate a lot on the phone. And then my younger sister I love a lot, but you know — she’s seven years younger than I am, and I moved when I was 20, so the last time we spent extensive time together was when she was 13. When you asked me to be part of this podcast, I was like, “Do I have any right being a part of this podcast? Because I’m not necessarily entirely really close with my family.” It’s something that I’ve definitely grieved and worked through, and been able to come out the other end and love them deeply. But it’s not one of those families where we all see each other on Zoom once a week, and we all get together and debate and fight and love openly. It’s interesting because I’m very much that person, and I’ve always been that person. I think that’s why I moved when I was 20, because I felt like I didn’t fit in with my family. And I’ll say it again, it’s no slight to anyone in my family, it’s just who I felt my core was. I was like, “I belong somewhere else right now.” To be able to step into my quote unquote authentic self.

Rebecca
That’s interesting, because I do very much associate you with being so open and gregarious. It’s true, I would have thought that your whole family was that way as well — totally just made up a story. That’s interesting — that you have felt as the fish out of water a little bit.

Craig
Absolutely. It is definitely something growing up, when I left Newfoundland, and making friends with people that do have incredible relationships — or seemingly incredible relationships — with their family, very outwardly close. The romantic ideas of Sunday night dinners and you know — but it also happens in a lot of families. I definitely felt like I didn’t have that, I processed a lot of disappointment and anger and sadness and just grief around that. So now I get to be a 40-year-old man who just fell in love with someone, and get to build that for myself and that family that I might have. If that’s too deep I’m so sorry!

Rebecca
Never too deep. Rooting for you. Nat and I were trying to figure out when we became really close, because we are really close now — but we asked our mom what she remembers, and she was like — what did she say, Nat? How much we fought? She was kind of negative about our relationship. Natalie, you had to process that.

Natalie
Yeah, I had to work through that one. Because we have all these pictures of us as little kids — hugging constantly, like my arms thrown around Becca’s shoulders — and like there was definitely a big sister little sister sort of connection happening, obviously. But then in our high school years… I think high school is just really hard, and as a high school teacher, I can speak to what I observe of these young people who are navigating so much. It’s hard to be close to anybody, because you’re still trying to figure yourself out, right? — as you’ve just spoken so eloquently about, Craig. I went to an art school, so I should have been really in touch with all my feelings, but I really built up some serious walls in that time because of — who knows why, really. So retrospectively looking back on our lives as sisters, I would say that there was probably a chunk of time in there where we were just figuring ourselves out. So that means you’re not as connected as we’ve become as adults.

Rebecca
I think we actively fought. We were big fighters — like door slammers. Natalie was so sensitive. I actually see that in my daughter right now, my youngest daughter. She’s always complaining to me about how my oldest daughter is treating her, and she’ll sulk a little bit. I’m not saying you sulked, Nat, although maybe you did.

Natalie
I don’t know, I probably blocked that out.

Craig
Probably I did!

Rebecca
But she’s really delicate. Elsie’s doing this or that, and when I dive into it a little bit, it’s not very much — like Elsie’s maybe given her a look, it’s quite mild. So sometimes I associate Natalie — this is just putting it all out there — with being that sort of delicate flower.

Natalie
Because a look means so much! Oh my gosh, I totally get your youngest.

Rebecca
I remember thinking, “I wish we were the kind of sisters that could just fight and yell,” and then it would be over and instead, it was like, really small and intense. You don’t say much, but then you go and shut the door, and you’re mad for two hours, and then we would have to have these really big conversations to sort it out. Do you remember any of this?

Natalie
Sort of, but my point would be that perhaps those ‘death by a thousand cuts’ moments when we were younger has actually given us the tools to do what we continue to do now. We built up the resilience to be able to do that.

Rebecca
Which is what you’re saying, Craig — your vision for creating that with your own family.

Craig
Yeah, and me and my brother have been able to work through a lot of that, and also become closer as a result of it as well.

Natalie
A good fight is actually something not to be afraid of. That was probably something I navigated when I was in high school — a lack of willingness to engage super emotionally with anyone in terms of a fight.

Craig
We grew up in the 80s. It might be different now (or just my idea of parenting would be different), but I know for us — how many times did my mom and dad just say, “Stop fighting”? As opposed to, “What’s going on? Let’s all sit together, let’s communicate how you’re feeling,” and then you learn that fighting is a bad thing, that you just have to stop fighting. That’s not conducive to a healthy relationship, whether that be siblings, friends, lovers, et cetera.

Rebecca
Nat, you’ve mentioned this — or you and Clifford have talked about this — but we sometimes say, in our households, “Are you good?” I’ll say to Violet, “Are you good? Are we good?” I have to catch myself, because I realized now — does she always have to be good? As long as everything’s copacetic, is that what I’m saying by that? I think it goes along with what you’re saying, Craig — fighting and not being good, can those things be allowed? Can we all be brave enough to experience those things? Because it is hard for me as a parent, I want her to be good. I don’t want her to be sad, it makes me concerned, it brings up stuff in me.

Craig
But you also want her therapy bill when she’s 40 to be not as much as mine!

Rebecca
Yeah, cause apparently kids these days aren’t gonna have any money, right?

Craig
Or a world to live in, or an environment that’s healthy. Or fresh water.

Rebecca
Let alone a house. Craig, you’re so wise and it’s been lovely to talk to you. I was gonna ask you this question — I was curious about any sacrifices you’ve made for your twin, I was thinking in terms of a ‘twin sacrifice’ in particular, because that seemed really interesting, but it sounds like maybe just staying by each other… I don’t know, how would you say it?

Craig
I don’t think I’ve sacrificed anything for him. On the flip side of everything we’ve talked about today, I think we’ve also given each other a lot of space to be who we are and what we need. I think, if anything, I used to sacrifice me being honest with how I’m feeling with him — in a way to protect him. To bring it full circle to what we were just talking about, I think that’s not actually the way that you should live life, I think we should always be honest, and have the hard talks and have the hard chats, and have the tears and have the laughter, and then what will come out of that will be something much more fruitful.

Natalie
That’s like summing up the whole point of our Sister On! podcast. So right there, that’s our thesis. Done.

Rebecca
All the laughs, all the tears.

Natalie
So that you can be better on the other side.

Craig
Exactly, yeah.

Natalie
Thanks so much, Craig.

Craig
Thanks for creating such a really safe, loving space to be able to speak openly about all these things. I really do appreciate it.

Rebecca
Yeah, and thanks for being so willing, Craig. I really appreciated how you were just like, “Yeah, for sure. I’m in.” It made me feel loved.

Craig
Anything you need. If I can, I will be there.

Rebecca
Even cookies.

Craig
Even cookies. Absolutely.

Natalie
Wonderful. Take good care, Craig.

Craig
Bye. Thanks for having me on.

Rebecca
Good luck with your Newfoundland venture.

Craig
Come out and say hi, anytime. Bye!

Rebecca
Bye.