Rebecca
Hey Nat.

Natalie
Hey Bec.

Rebecca
How’s it going?

Natalie
It’s really good. I made it here to get to be with you in person. I love a session where we get to look at each other in the eyes.

Rebecca
And your eyes are always so good.

Natalie
I did. I went a little bit black with a purple rim. I really have to go hard on the eyeliner when I’m staring into those Zoom screens with my students, I swear. I have to give them something.

Rebecca
That’s very generous.

Natalie
It’s like the eyes, and then a mask. You know, it is what it is.

Rebecca
Meanwhile, I’m on day five or six of the same sweatshirt.

Natalie
But it’s a good sweatshirt. It’s the best pink.

Rebecca
It is the best pink, isn’t it? Like, my children are getting concerned. But I don’t care. Ok, so today we wanted to reframe toxic positivity. We are reframing toxic positivity.

Natalie
Or at least attempting to.

Rebecca
Just that small thing. Do you remember what even made us think of this topic?

Natalie
Yeah, I remember that I was talking about some op-ed that had come out earlier on in the pandemic, maybe a year in. It was written by a teacher who had published some piece in… I think it was The Globe and Mail, but it could have been any of those. It was a teacher who happened to teach at a private school — so that never bodes well for the public teachers out there in the world, they just get really antsy when somebody from the private sector tries to talk about education in any way to them. Because we’re like, “You don’t know what we know!” This person was trying to — I think in their mind — reframe what the experience of online and hybrid teaching had been for them at that point. Certainly the online experience of education.

And Twitter blew up. Education Twitter was so mad. It was all about like, “I will not have this toxic positivity bullshit come at me like this.” Basically, they didn’t feel like they wanted to feel better yet. That was the idea. Whether this person with their, “You know what, just keep a gratitude journal, maybe that’ll help…” — they were small suggestions for a very large problem that I think culminated in many people’s minds as the ultimate example of toxic positivity. Of somebody trying to tell me to feel better when I don’t feel better, and your ways are not actually that helpful. Which made me go, “Uh oh, I wonder if someone could imagine that of what we do here with reframing.” That someone could say, “How is it any better than that toxic positivity stance?” Is one just simply trying to spin a bad situation into something manageable or ok, and is that really nuanced? Now, I think you and I would say yes, and we’ve got some reasons that we can share — but you could see how someone could take umbrage with reframing, if that’s how they hear it.

Rebecca
I think mom sometimes thinks that about reframing, doesn’t she?

Natalie
Maybe. Or maybe her first go-to is resistance.

Rebecca
That this is trying to slap on a solution?

Natalie
Maybe, yeah. I think you have a friend who has certainly been a little bit like “Meh, I’m not into reframing.” There are folks who are not going to align with how I’ve tried to present it here.

Rebecca
Although it’s kind of funny to say, “I don’t like reframing,” in a way. Because isn’t it, “I don’t want to see this thing from a different perspective?”

Natalie
Well, that’s what I would say. But I mean, who am I? Who am I, Rebecca? I am just one voice.

Rebecca
Ok, but am I allowed to say that sometimes super-positive people really bug me?

Natalie
Yeah.

Rebecca
Because there was a girl — do you remember when I was going to Africa, on one of those trips?

Natalie
To Africa, writ large? What country did you go to, Rebecca?

Rebecca
Mali. West Africa. That’s true, thank you. There was a girl on the trip, it was through a church group, and we were going to build an orphanage. Which…

Natalie
We can problematize all of those.

Rebecca
That’s for another session. Actually, I had a good conversation with someone about that. It doesn’t matter. And there was a girl on the trip, I remember in one of our prep sessions, preparing to build the orphanage who said, “I never had a bad day in my life.”

Natalie
Oh, wow.

Rebecca
And she really meant it. And it bugged me, even then at 16. I was like, “How? How is that possible?” At 16, I had so many bad days. I think I have struggled with depression over my life, and maybe I recognized that even then.

Natalie
Was she also 16? Just curious.

Rebecca
I think we were probably the same age.

Natalie
So then I might have said, “Life was going to hit her a little bit later.”

Rebecca
“You haven’t lived yet.”

Natalie
But whatever. I can imagine that moment as being a little bit disconcerting, for sure.

Rebecca
Sometimes I think back to that moment, and I think, “Oh, am I crabby or crotchety?” I had to look up synonyms for grumpy, because I was like, “What is it, is it grumpy?” Is this a grumpy part of myself, or is it just realism?

Natalie
I think it’s realism. That’s how I would…

Rebecca
And we’ve debated this before on this podcast.

Natalie
Yeah, we have. So if we frame you as a realist in many ways — and I’m saying that of myself, too — I’m feeling like it’s not a big deal to hear somebody else’s positivity as an affront. I think that that is reasonable.

Rebecca
Sometimes.

Natalie
Yeah. To have that sort of response.

Rebecca
Although we probably need to check ourselves too.

Natalie
Yeah. I think that there is something about being super-positive or optimistic that is actually a good practice to just have in life. So maybe that girl took that forward, and honestly, maybe she’s doing really well in the world right now. I would hope that for her, because who wouldn’t hope that for somebody.

Rebecca
And maybe I was just being crotchety because I found that hard.

Natalie
Right, or maybe because you hadn’t found the safest space yet to get to be grumpy in. Does that make sense? Clifford talked about this one famous director (he and I both said we were going to look up the name, and then we forgot, so we have to come back to that — hopefully in the show notes, I’ll have the name for it). But there was the very famous worker from Hollywood who had an avowed stance that they would never speak negatively about anybody in that world, because that world was so small — except with his partner. So that was his one safe space where he could vent. It wasn’t that he was ignoring those feelings of frustration that can happen with anybody, but he was going to have one person to make sure that it didn’t spill out into other aspects of his life and then come back to burn him.

Rebecca
So are you my safe person?

Natalie
I will be that person.

Rebecca
You and this whole podcast.

Natalie
Yes. We, the Sister On! family, will be your safe space.

Rebecca
Ok, great. Getting back to that person for a second, my friend would say there’s no room for that kind of grumpy, realistic thoughts. I might say, “Come on, I’m just being realistic, I just need to air it. I just need to vent this.” I would say that she’s not the safe space for that, because she just doesn’t agree with it. She would say that even putting those feelings out is kind of perpetuating that energy that’s really going to come back at you, so you’re kind of doing harm to yourself. What do you think of that? Is that veering into toxic positivity for you?

Natalie
Maybe for me. Yeah. I remember when I was doing my master’s, one of the people who was on my committee — I used the word ‘authenticity’ as a part of my initial draft of what I was talking about in terms of teacher’s care, like self-care for teachers. I talked about the need for authentic care. He’s like, “What does that even mean? What is authentic? Authentic to who?” I remember just being like, “Oh my gosh, dude. I’m just trying.” But he was so right. What does that really mean? To truly be authentic with the self, there’s going to be gradations of that for everybody. For me to call this person that you’re describing, their way of operating in the world is toxically positive, because it doesn’t fit with my authentic interpretation of how I live in the world, that’s dismissive of their experience. I have to be careful there, right?

Rebecca
Because she’s lived through quite a bit, and she’s saying, “This is how I need to cope now.” She has this thing where if a thought comes into her head that’s not helpful for her, she just says, “Next. Next thought. I’m not spending any time there. I’m just moving on from that thought.”

Natalie
Right. For her, I can see how that could make sense. Whereas for me, that would feel very inauthentic because I have certainly had in the past a tendency towards avoiding my feelings for the sake of trying to take care of everybody else — and then that has not turned out to be great for my mind or my body. I do wonder at times whether my issues with my leg and my blood clots and almost losing it — all that kind of horrible health nastiness — could have been, in many ways, lived out in my body. You even said that you wonder if some of that tension came out from there.

Rebecca
From being too positive, or trying to force positivity?

Natalie
No, from avoiding. I’m avoiding thinking about things. To me, the way that you’ve described your friend sounds like her version of that for her is one thing, but how it might have lived out in my body would have been different.

Rebecca
Would have been avoidance.

Natalie
Avoidance of even thinking and feeling. That didn’t work out for me. I would say that the authenticity thing needs to be named. What is it that is important for you? So what is certainly important for me is reframing hard things so that I can find a way through them, but with nuance. It really does become about balancing.

Rebecca
And you like to name things.

Natalie
And I do like to name things, yes. 100%.

Rebecca
The other thing for me — this is something I have to keep wrestling with in this conversation — is that I worry about being or feeling fake. This is a preoccupation of mine. Like, am I being — I would have used the word authentic, so I have to maybe sit with that. If I’m too positive, is that being fake? I see a lot of sides to this issue. To just take the positive side feels like I’m not giving enough weight to the potentially negative side.

Natalie
But see, I think you’ve just hit on what for me makes reframing not toxic positivity. It’s the balance. You just said, “If I just focused on this.” I don’t ever think reframing is ‘just’ — the emphasis being placed on that word, if I could italicize it, right? It’s not ‘just.’ It’s ‘and,’ or ‘with,’ or ‘because.’ Whatever it is, it’s a… what would the grammatical term be for one of those words? It’s a part of the whole.

Rebecca
Is that a preposition?

Natalie
I don’t know. Ask Clifford. He’s the one that used to teach business English.

Rebecca
Conjunction?

Natalie
Is that what that is? Oh my gosh. Mom, fix us.

Rebecca
That’s also for the show notes.

Natalie
But that idea of that limitation being placed on the word, with ‘just,’ is not part of the story for me when it comes to reframing. I really think that there’s something powerful about the idea of being able to hold multiple things at the same time, in both hands — looking at them and feeling, in both of those hands. I do believe that in reframing, I’m trying to give maybe more to the hand that is holding an option through. As opposed to the negative, which for me can often feel like a stop sign, or like a red light. I want to be able to somehow move through that, so that’s where the reframe shows up for me.

Rebecca
It’s interesting, because in our family we can get a little negative. Sometimes mom and I commiserate a bit together, and I think I can see you bristling and pushing back. Are we really going to sit here — even though mom and I are probably like, “We’re just looking at something authentically,” or all those things.

Natalie
I would be saying (I think it’s one of the reasons why families can do so well together, I have to believe that) that not everybody comes at something from the same place. Just because you guys might bristle at my potential reframing, just like I might bristle at your needing to sit in the moment for a bit longer, doesn’t mean that we aren’t all useful to each other. We’re all saying something that can help us. I would say, “Move through.”

Rebecca
Yeah. You had also said that you think negativity can create a false sense of intimacy between people. This habit can become a crutch in some relationships.

Natalie
Yeah. I think it can become a crutch in… if we’re going to say relationship, that sounds more intimate. I think initially I was thinking like a bunch of teachers getting together, you will find that they will inevitably find themselves bitching about things. There’s a sense of commonality in being able to complain together. Sara Ahmed, that academic who left the academy, she has a whole piece of work right now (that I need to read more of) called A Pedagogy of Complaint. I don’t think that complaint is inherently bad, either. That’s what I’m saying, there’s something to be taught and learned through the naming of pain.

Rebecca
Is that what she means by that?

Natalie
That’s an angle of where she would go. You might really enjoy that work. If you want to spend the $60 on the text, I’ll borrow it from you.

Rebecca
The Pedagogy of Complaint? I can already hear that like it.

Natalie
I think that she would also, as a nuanced scholar, not say, “And then you stop there.” I think that the danger of the complaint is creating a false sense of intimacy with the colleagues who are not really known to each other. The danger of that is that you can start complaining and then it could move really quickly to not just even a bitching session, but a gossip session — and now it’s just hurtful. Now you’re complaining about your bosses, and what does that really get you? It might be very human, but it doesn’t get you very far, especially when they’re also human. I would just say that I think there’s a false sense of intimacy in those types of settings, and then probably even with friendships.

Rebecca
I’m thinking back on friendships and thinking, “What were the friendships that I had that were based on bitching? Have I had those?” It’s something I need to reflect on more.

Natalie
Again, it’s finding a balance between having a safe space to vent in — which I think is so healthy and necessary — but also not being so prone to that. I would say it’s a dragging down. If I’m negative, then do I need for everybody else to be down there with me? Why wouldn’t I want somebody to lift me up? But if we’re just all dragging each other down, there must be power in there. Power in holding other people in the moment of negativity, or pain, or whatever. Are we scared of healing, and then we don’t want somebody else to heal at the same time? I think it could go down those roads. That might be for another episode that’s longer and more ponderous and thoughtful.

Rebecca
This is our efficient episode.

Natalie
This is our efficient episode on toxic positivity. This is probably one of those ones that has to be in a few parts — and would be really interesting to have some of the listeners send us notes or voice notes to read aloud, or to listen to, on their own experiences of what they have seen and lived out as toxic positivity, and where it’s different than reframing. Because enough people have listened to us talk about reframing that it must be resonating with some.

Rebecca
And it would be interesting to find out where it isn’t. Because remember, we did have a friend who sent us an episode to listen to and she was mentioning how this is basically unreframable. Remember the issue in that particular episode — someone’s wife had died. It was tragic.

Natalie
Or right now, with war. War around the globe. Obviously right now, the world is very focused on Ukraine, but we could be focusing on what has long been happening to the Palestinians. We can focus on so many, right? In Somalia. We’ve just got so much to name as horrific. I don’t think that reframing is something to attach to war. I’m not ever going to go, “Well, let’s reframe war.” That’s just lacking in nuance.

Rebecca
And it’s just tone deaf.

Natalie
It’s tone deaf, and… well, just bad. But can the act of reframing appear somewhere in one’s lived experience of those various pains? I would still have to say yes, otherwise, well, the world’s going to blow up.

Rebecca
Yeah, then the world just gets too oppressive.

Natalie
It’s just too painful.

Rebecca
The last thought I had was we had touched on reframing as parents, and allowing in these negative emotions, but finding balance. Did you want to speak to that? Or I’ll just tell my story.

Natalie
No, tell your story, and then I’ll see if I have something to offer.

Rebecca
There was this funny moment between Simon, Violet, and I. Simon was in the basement, but he heard me. I took a Tylenol in front of her and I said (I thought I was being kind of funny), “I’m taking this Tylenol for my life!”

Natalie
Ok, right.

Rebecca
Which I still think is funny. And then Simon, who was eavesdropping from the basement, said, “Oh, she doesn’t need to hear that.” I know you’re probably on his side for this one.”

Natalie
No. Nuance, Becca.

Rebecca
It was just interesting, because he just felt that was too somber. “Don’t put that on her,” is basically what he said. But I thought she was still looking at me with… I felt there was a twinkle in her eye.

Natalie
Well, did she roll her eyes at you? “Oh, mama,” like that?

Rebecca
Well, Simon interjected too quickly for me to really know — so then she was waiting to see what my reaction was going to be to Simon. I didn’t want to make it a big thing, even though I could have made it a big thing. But I just thought, “Oh interesting, all of our tolerances.” I would say he has a fairly low tolerance for being negative — although he’s spent 20 years with me and survived, so it’s probably increasing his tolerance. But it’s really not his go-to. He would like to stick on, “What’s the positive side of this?” He doesn’t find usefulness in sitting in the realism for too long. He wouldn’t even call it realism. What would he call it? “I just don’t find that useful.”

Natalie
But then I’m not even sure that that means Simon is reframing. Si, do you think you’re reframing? I don’t know that that’s reframing. That just might literally be where he goes.

Rebecca
Or he’s just such a natural reframer, that he doesn’t even… or you think it’s not?

Natalie
Maybe.

Rebecca
Does reframing have to be conscious?

Natalie
I think for me it does. I think that I have to feel like I’ve seen where I could go, in terms of a shadow side of some sort, and then I have to make a conscious choice to go another way. That, for me, is how I understand the power of reframing in my life. He might just be an inherently positive guy, and I think that’s why you guys have lived for 20 years in relative marital bliss. You are two people who are different enough, but you see the good in each other’s sides that work together for balance. If the healthiest relationships are balanced, then wouldn’t that be a part of what makes it good? But your ability to reframe would be something he would no doubt celebrate as you continue to get better at it.

Rebecca
Because I would say my natural inclination is to not reframe, and then wait until you help me. Just before we started this conversation, I said, “I need to tell you something.”

Natalie
But I don’t think that reframing was my natural inclination. I think my natural inclination, for many years, was to just not feel. I think I was just like: head down, get through whatever the through was. I think that perhaps the efficiency piece was my go-to. It took a lot of hurt, it took health issues and a divorce. I could have one kid and not more. All the things, the things that are a part of my story, that I could go really sad — but I want to enjoy the parts of what I have been gifted in this latter half of my… what are we calling this now? Middle age, whatever this is. My power years. Didn’t we call it that?

Rebecca
You’re trying to enjoy your power years.

Natalie
You know what, dammit, I want to enjoy my power years. That’s exactly it. So I have to find a way to be able to see what is real, and then move towards something that will let me enjoy the journey. That sounds so cheesy, but I really think that that must be it. So reframing — we’re going to sum this up — is not toxic positivity. If you’re seeing it the way I think we’re talking about here, which means living it out with balance, it doesn’t mean avoiding shit. From my perspective, it means seeing it, and then either scooping it, or walking around it, or whatever — however you want to extend that one. That scatological metaphor.

Rebecca
What does that mean again?

Natalie
Poop.

Rebecca
Well, what’s scatological, though? Oh, that means — ok.

Natalie
When we talk about scatological humor, we’re talking about poop humor, like body humor. Yeah.

Rebecca
I wish Clifford was listening. He’d be like, “No, that’s what it means.” I need a dictionary beside me when I do these podcasts. Thanks, Nat. I’m going to go away and think about that. And so shall you.

Natalie
And so shall I. I love you.

Rebecca
I love you.

Natalie
Bye.

Rebecca
Oh, and please subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. It would mean the world. Love, Sister On!