Natalie
And Nat — two very different sisters who come together each week to reframe problems big and small with you, our dear Reframeables.

Rebecca
And why do we call you such a term of endearment?

Natalie
Because we are all in the process of reframing and being reframed.

Rebecca
So this week, we are reframing growth for our last episode of our list — summer series, summer series list episode. Which order do you put those words in? So how are you feeling, Nat? Just check in with me about growth, as you are really beginning a whole new way of life?

Natalie
Yeah, I am. For those of you who don’t know, I have just finished leaving a career — 20 years long of teaching in the high school setting. So I am now working at a university teaching Masters of Education students, and guiding (so basically colleagues) along their path, and then at the same time, I’m doing this podcast and many other creative ventures with my sister. So I’m feeling really excited, and a little bit… is it trepidatory? I think that’s the word. That’s what I’m feeling.

Rebecca
Really — that’s the word, is it?

Natalie
I, in fact, know that it’s the word because I googled it last night, just to make sure.

Rebecca
Trepidatory.

Natalie
Yeah, and that’s what I’m feeling. I am feeling a little bit of both. I mean, I think it’s super interesting that with my students — these are adults who are going after learning. Ok, so these are people who are established in their careers. These are vice principals and principals who are going after their master’s degrees, because they want to keep growing as learners. In education, we use this language of lifelong learning almost so much that it becomes a bit tropey and cheesy, but I feel like I’m with my students doing that — like in a really not clichéd way now. Like I really truly am learning about myself and growing by trying something so new, which is to actually embark on basically a brand new career at 43. Yeah, I’m feeling really excited, but a little nervous.

Rebecca
And trepidatory.

Natalie
Exactly. How about you?

Rebecca
I think I’m trying to figure out where to put my growing focus for this next fall period, because we were deciding that you grow… what are seasons of growth? New year’s, sometimes, in the calendar of…

Natalie
Growth? In the growth calendar.

Rebecca
In the colonial calendar of growth.

Natalie
Yeah, well, I mean we have this whole thing where we talk about growth, and resolutions, right? Like at New Year’s, that seems to be the whole thing — that’s the main cultural conversation of sorts. But for those of us in teaching, or who are parents, then September is a real time of change and growth, because either kids are going back to school and starting a whole new school year, or so are we. So I think September fits as a time of growth, in the Reframeables calendar.

Rebecca
In our calendar. We choose, we choose for ourselves. So I was listening to this meditation, I was driving Violet to camp yesterday — so I had a lot of time in the car by myself, because Simon stayed home to do work. I don’t usually do the driving. These long drives, he does them. This time I was doing it.

Natalie
So how was this for you?

Rebecca
It was very long, but I did enjoy this long — I was then able to listen to a very long meditation.

Natalie
Cool.

Rebecca
And the guy was talking about this Buddhist teaching where they’re… I don’t even know if I could sum it up. But the point is that he was like, “We want to develop a stronger mind, so that it’s a mind that’s not so agitated.” Which… I think my mind gets a little agitated. Would you say so, Nat?

Natalie
Well, I think it’s moving. I definitely think it’s a moving mind. So if by not getting agitated, this Buddhist thinker is suggesting that you…

Rebecca
It’s a moving mind. And that’s what he’s saying — is that in a meditation practice, you can develop a mind that doesn’t move.

Natalie
I love that, the idea of stillness.

Rebecca
Yeah, because in some ways, you could think, “Oh, that sounds negative, because I want to be all fluid.” But I don’t think that’s what that means here. I think this is a mind that doesn’t move because it doesn’t get agitated. So it’s not a wayward mind that gets taken off in every direction. So I feel like that is a huge growth point for me, and I want to work on that — which I have to practice. I have to do more meditation to work on it.

Natalie
I love that. First of all, I’m going to tease you just for a second, because I think one of the first times I talked about meditation on here, I did talk about doing it in a car on the way up to work, and you started laughing — like full on out loud, because you were like, “No way, how can you meditate and drive in traffic?”

Rebecca
I don’t know if I said that. By the way, I wasn’t meditating — I was just learning about meditation.

Natalie
Ok.

Rebecca
So I stand by my point, although now I might disagree. If I did say that…

Natalie
Which you did.

Rebecca
And I’m going to go back and listen.

Natalie
We’re going to find it.

Rebecca
I think I might disagree with myself now.

Natalie
I love that! Growth. I think that’s brilliant. Ok.

Rebecca
I’m not afraid to disagree with myself.

Natalie
I love that. I also think that that sounds really amazing and thoughtful, and I need to consider it too, because I do feel like there is something really big in honouring and finding stillness. Yours, it sounds like what you’re saying is it’s in your mind. I know I have that proclivity to need to move with my body, because of all of my various body issues with my leg and stuff. So I feel that inclination to move towards stillness, because it’s something that’s a little harder. So that would feel like growth. I get that.

Rebecca
But is there… so like, are we done now? Is the episode over because we’ve each reached… like, is there anything else?

Natalie
Oh no, we have many more things.

Rebecca
But is there a problem we’re reframing to the end of this episode?

Natalie
Oh, well, I guess I would say that we are reframing what growth can look like, in a season. So is the problem how do I go into this September new, and really honouring what growth looks like for me now? That’s my interpretation.

Rebecca
And not criticizing ourselves for where we still need to grow?

Natalie
Absolutely, yeah.

Rebecca
Because I could say to myself, “Bec, you’re so terrible that you don’t have a still mind yet, or that your mind tends to move so crazy.”

Natalie
Well, and yeah, and I would want to interrupt that and go, “Well, let’s not use the word crazy, because that’s a really loaded word.”

Rebecca
Yes.

Natalie
And also, I would say that let’s reframe any of that kind of energy where we start to think negatively around growth, as opposed to just inherently seeing it as a good thing that we’re engaging with it at all. I think you said…

Rebecca
That we’re examining ourselves at all.

Natalie
Yes, yeah. I remember that when we started using the language of ‘socially conscious self-help’ in relation to what we do with Reframeables — we’ve started using that phrase on social media for those of you who follow us, if not, please go on there and find us on Twitter or on Instagram or on TikTok (oh my gosh, I have so many new videos for everybody on TikTok). But we’ve been using that language because it really does, and we tested it on a few of our close Reframeable friends, and they said, “Yeah, that really hits on what you two do.” And I think that you said to me, “Yeah, I was listening to…” and it might have been another Buddhist thinker, but it was somebody who was basically looking at self-care as being good for the world, because it’s conscious. You’re consciously aware of how you work for your own good, which allows for the space to care for others. Am I getting that right? I feel like that’s what we had talked about.

Rebecca
I think so, yeah. It was a monk, and I think he was going at the idea that if we all believe we’re all connected, that if you care for yourself, then you are caring for others.

Natalie
Well, and so isn’t that growth? Growth and care to me, especially when we’re tending to gardens — but I’m going to get ahead of myself, because I want to say something about food. So this is another area for me that I’m feeling growth in, but it comes back to care. So on TikTok this week, I made a video about eating — excuse me, sorry, about eating chia pudding. But not just chia pudding, it was chia porridge. And this specific little video was me in my robe, so it felt very vulnerable, but anyways, I did it.

Rebecca
It was because it was a red robe.

Natalie
It was a red robe — a red silk robe, in fact.

Rebecca
It was vulnerable. I admire that, Nat.

Natalie
Thank you. I did this for everybody, but specifically I did it for me because I was eating this chia porridge that I had put together, but I ate it out of the pan. And my little message, my reframing message, was: I think if we start our days showing ourselves care (and for me, this was eating something only I wanted to eat in the house, so I made it just for me in a little personal pan, and then I didn’t even put it in a pretty glass and need to set it up for an Instagram shot — it was just, “I’m going to eat this, and I’m going to eat it while it’s still warm and perfect out of this silly little pot.” And it felt very honouring of myself. It felt really like this is a moment of growth and care, because it was just for me, but it now made me a healthier, happier human to live with for the rest of that day, and then hopefully I could bring that out into the world. And, food metaphor — chia seeds grow.

Rebecca
They’re expansive.

Natalie
Yeah, they expand, right? That’s the whole point of them, is that they… well, I don’t know if it’s the point of them. But anyways, it’s one of the reasons why we like eating them.

Rebecca
It’s the point of them.

Natalie
It’s the point of them. Is that we stick them in something liquid, and then they grow and expand. So life metaphor, wrapped up in a seed.

Rebecca
What better?

Natalie
What better way to move through and reframe?

Rebecca
Also, did you feel a bit beastlike, just eating out of… eating however you damn wanted?

Natalie
I would never have used the word ‘beast.’ No. But sometimes your thought prompts are good for me, because now I’m going, “Was I? I don’t know.”

Rebecca
Well, you just, like, shovel it in if you… could you, by yourself? Like, you know you don’t have to, no one’s watching you, and you haven’t even put it in a bowl.

Natalie
Ok, sure. Yes.

Rebecca
You beast.

Natalie
I’m a beast. I’m a chia seed-eating beast, and it felt great. So that was me.

Rebecca
Ok, and I appreciate that because I’m in a breakfast rut right now, so I think I want to do a chia pudding in a private pan. All I do is eat toast.

Natalie
Well, it’s a nice option.

Rebecca
Ok, thank you.

Natalie
Ok. Another thing that I’m really keen on right now is this very specific poem, and so this is very connected to growth for me. It’s a poem by Emily Dickinson, and there’s a line in it specifically where she has written, “To be a flower is profound responsibility.” So I think that whole line is growth to me.

Rebecca
Tell me more.

Natalie
Ok, so I really thought this one through, because I knew when I chose it at one time, and I had talked about it with you, I was getting really excited and I wasn’t watching your eyes get excited with me. And so I was thinking, “I’m going to have to prove this one.” So this is me…

Rebecca
Yeah, no, I love the line. And it just makes me ponder, as she does make us ponder.

Natalie
Yeah, ok, that’s a good way of putting it. She starts that phrase off with, “To be a flower,” right? “To be.” And to me, that line right there, those two words ‘to be,’ is something that is all about growth. Because as I’ve already just said, I am really focused on doing. So it would be a very Natalie way to be in the world to do this next thing, whereas to be feels really new. And I’m going to have to work on that. And so I do think to be quote-unquote more in parentheses ‘a flower’ or ‘a Natalie,’ there’s a great responsibility in there. So there’s something about that that I just think that prompted some real pondering for me, which is, I think, really interesting.

I also think that the idea of being a flower — so the flower is this thing that grows, has to be tended to, has to be cared for, but also its only job truly is to be… well, it’s got multiple jobs. Because I was going to say, “Its only job is to be beautiful,” but actually, you know, it’s attracting bees, and then bees go on and do… well, it’s because of the bees that our planet still exists. So I mean, maybe I’m a little bit wrong in this, because the flower’s job, there are multiple parts to it, but the part I was focusing on was its aesthetic existence, because I just think there was something really powerful for me in that line of the flower being a flower as inherently responsible, when its only job in that moment for me is to be beautiful. And so what is it about beauty? There’s a reciprocal relationship happening then between the observer and the flower, because I get to take in the flower’s beauty, and then be changed by it. And so that just feels like the flower is doing something for me, just as much as I tend to it as the carer. And so I think growth for me then is our responsibility to the parts of our life, whether it’s in the natural world, or the food we make, or whatever it is that inspires growth.

Rebecca
And our responsibility to what we see.

Natalie
Mm-hmm. And seeing it, right? Actually being in the moment to see it, I think, is going to take work on my part, because I am such a doer. So I really felt called out or something by that line — in a good way.

Rebecca
I love it.

Well, I see your poem and I meet it with another snippet of a poem — because we can only read snippets, everyone.

Natalie
Oh, yeah, it’s a copyright thing.

Rebecca
So this is a poem from Kate Baer. It’s called Still Married.

Natalie
I like it already.

Rebecca
And I’m just going to highlight a couple lines. “The children are getting older, and I don’t know how we ever managed.” And then, “Nothing is easier and yet here we are making pancakes with the radio on.” And I just find that poignant, because I feel like in this season for me, I do feel like there’s a lot of shifting. The children are getting older, and I don’t know how we ever managed what we came through, I guess that’s what she’s saying. And I don’t know, what about this, though? The, “Nothing is easier and yet here we are making pancakes.” So in some ways, the growth doesn’t just lead necessarily to an easier time. Is that how you hear that?

Natalie
Definitely.

Rebecca
Do you hear this poem as happy or sad?

Natalie
I think I hear it as a little bit of both. I mean, I think isn’t that all big moments in life — is they’re sort of like, they can be really big and beautiful, but tinged with a little bit of sadness, because there’s a recognition that there are endings attached to them?

Rebecca
But as you get older also, are you more and more cognizant of the ending, so everything gets a little more melancholy? I mean, I certainly have noticed that, I don’t know, with our parents maybe? That there’s more, there’s something deeper about them? Maybe?

Natalie
Yeah. Well, because they’re not just focused on, you know, work, eating, sleep, next day. Achievement.

Rebecca
Achievement.

Natalie
Yeah. I mean, there’s just more energy put into being.

Rebecca
Yeah. But in the being is the recognition that there’s lots of endings that happened now, and that there are lots more to come.

Natalie
Yeah.

Rebecca
And that’s heavy. Melancholy.

Natalie
It’s a little heavy.

Rebecca
Happy Monday!

Natalie
I also think just from that line that there’s something really lovely about the idea of that line. If you can read it again, where it says that there’s no less work. Is that what she said?

Rebecca
“Nothing is easier.”

Natalie
Nothing is easier — because she’s talking about growing children, right? And I think that when we were new parents, a kid feels like a lot of work, right? Because they’re constantly — especially as someone who breastfed, that was a constant. I’d be running back from work, just “Ahhh!,” to get to Frankie so that he could eat. I mean, it was just so constant. But now he’s eight, and I don’t feel like it’s any less work. It’s just new work, and I’ve heard from friends who have teenagers that in fact, it’s even more work, because now you’re just providing in a new way for all of their exposures to a new world that they are navigating. So you’re just all the more present. But now you’re making pancakes with your spouse in the kitchen. I just think there’s something really lovely about… there’s a melancholia attached to beauty. Yeah, I see it. I love that poem. That’s lovely.

Rebecca
And you own your breasts again, now.

Natalie
Yeah, they’re mine.

Rebecca
That’s one thing you get back.

Natalie
So that’s win. Well, I love that. I think that’s really neat. Thanks for sharing that one.

Rebecca
Ok, the other thing that came to me regarding growth is this book Sidewalk Flowers.

Natalie
Oh, lovely.

Rebecca
Do you know this book?

Natalie
I’ve seen it. Maybe in Violet’s room?

Rebecca
I thought you were going to say out in the world. “I’ve seen it, um, in Violet’s bed.” It’s by JonArno Lawson and Sydney Smith. It’s just a really simple, beautiful book. This distracted father and his daughter go walking through the streets, and she’s collecting flowers, and then she starts giving the flowers out to a dog, to a homeless person. And they don’t necessarily notice the flowers, but you sort of sense that everyone is receiving these flowers as gifts, or that everyone’s going to be changed by these flowers. That is the sense of the book.

Natalie
I really love that. I’ve seen the book in the room, but I don’t think I’ve ever gone through it in detail like that. That’s wonderful. I mean, I’m going to bore people with every time that I’ve talked on this podcast about Emmanuel Levinas, that philosopher who talks about gift.

Rebecca
I’m so bored.

Natalie
Shut up. But that idea of gift as being something that can be given and not necessarily received, but there’s the gift in the giving — and yet both parties are still changed. That’s what’s the book is.

Rebecca
Yeah, it’s as if the author and the illustrator knew that philosopher, Nat.

Natalie
Yeah, maybe they did.

Rebecca
Oh, the other thing about it — there’s no words. So it’s completely images. All told through visual.

Natalie
That’s lovely.

Rebecca
Yes.

Natalie
Well, I really love that, and I will say that I can meet your picture book with another visual cue. For me, it’s in my bathing suit bottoms. So this summer, I treated myself to a new bathing suit, and I ordered it from a company called Left on Friday, and my gosh — I wish they were a partner and were sponsoring us with many fancy new bathing suits, but they’re not. But anyways, I’ll give them this promo because they are designed in Vancouver, so there’s a Canadian component to them. I ordered the Hi Hi Bottoms, so it’s like a bathing suit — you know, a little two piece or whatever thing, but the bottoms are super high. It means high at the leg, and then high on the waist, so they actually cover my belly button. So it’s a really modern, trendy look that was new for me. So that was growth, just even going down this road and trying out this bathing suit, but what’s so interesting is that I feel like I’m growing this summer specifically. I feel like I have grown in my ability to accept and not be so angry at my chronic condition with my leg.

So again, for those who don’t know me really well, I have shared on this podcast before that ten years ago, I had blood clot gone wrong in my leg, and after various surgeries and hospitalizations and a whole lot of scary near death, I have made it out on the other side, but I am left with a condition where I end up having to wear a compression sock all the time because of the swelling that is constantly happening in my leg. So it is a real source of stress in summer. I have said this before on the show, that summer hasn’t been my favourite season — because I have to show my sock first of all, so that feels very vulnerable, and also it’s just uncomfortable, and itchy, and all those things. But there’s something about having… those bathing suit bottoms, weirdly, have become a thing in my mind. They’re like a symbolic item of something that makes me feel beautiful, in spite (or maybe even because) of embracing another part of my same body part that’s in pain, which is my leg.

But I’m also tall — and you’ve commented before, “But Nat, you get to be so tall and wear long skirts and look all flowy.” Well, that’s what I feel like I’ve done with these bathing suit bottoms, is I’ve worn something that accentuates my height, and that felt very empowering. And some serious personal growth was happening. That I was not so angry at my leg — really actually feeling like, “Ok, I’m 43 and I’ve got another however many — 40, 50 years of this leg, and if it can get me through to then, I don’t think I need that many more bathing suit bottoms to be able to be ok up until then.” I think there’s just something about this momentary symbolic item that signifies something about being ok with my summer season leg. And it’s ok, if that doesn’t totally translate to somebody else listening. I think that’s maybe part of coming up with these symbolic items that signify our own personal growth. Do you know what I’m saying?

Rebecca
Yeah, I think that. I’m sure not everything we say has a direct application to other people, but the general conversation around, “How do we grow? What do we need to grow? How do we accept our personal journeys, our personal suffering?” I think that’s cool that you found… I’m really picturing you wearing that bathing suit at 80 right now. Just you walking on the beach going, “This is my…”

Natalie
“This is my item.”

Rebecca
“This is my item. It’s taken me here.”

Natalie
Yeah.

Rebecca
So yeah, Nat.

Natalie
Did I surprise you with that one?

Rebecca
No. Do I seem surprised?

Natalie
No, I don’t know. I’m just curious.

Rebecca
No, no, I love it. I think anytime you’re able to find more peace and joy, I’m delighted.

Natalie
Aw, thanks Bec.

Rebecca
So whatever the thing is. I mean, I’m not like, “Whatever — the bathing suit, I don’t get that.” No, I do — I love that bathing suit, so I totally agree.

Natalie
Cool.

Rebecca
So we went through our own personal moment that we’re going forward with, and then some poems, some chia pudding, Sidewalk Flowers, Natalie’s bathing suit bottoms. Do you want to sum us up here, Nat? What’s our takeaway?

Natalie
I think our takeaway is that fundamentally, we understand that growth is uncomfortable. But in that discomfort, the reframe would be to grow through to the other side of that discomfort, and either embrace what that discomfort has taught us, what we learn, continue to learn through it, and also the desire to sit in the growth and then move forward. That I feel like is something we can all get behind.

Rebecca
And maybe bring an item with you on the journey.

Natalie
With you on the journey, I love that. Yeah, exactly. You know what I’m doing right now?

Rebecca
What?

Natalie
I’m designing a necklace.

Rebecca
Oh.

Natalie
And the necklace…

Rebecca
Oh, I say that like I don’t know, but oh, I do know.

Natalie
I’m designing a necklace, Rebecca, that says reframe. And that necklace is going to be something that we’re going to put out there into the world for our dear Reframeables so that people can actually have an item that they could wear and remember that growth mindset — again, another educational term that’s a bit overused, but no, we’re owning it.

Rebecca
‘Growth mindset’ is an educational term that’s overused?

Natalie
Well, I mean, it’s used a lot.

Rebecca
I feel like I would hear that in coaching. I would hear that everywhere, right?

Natalie
Yeah, yeah. Still, thus, overused.

Rebecca
I mean, I say that every morning, so… “What’s our growth mindset, family?”

Natalie
Whatever.

Rebecca
I wish I said that every morning.

Natalie
But anyways, that’s what we’re going to do, people. We’re going to have these necklaces, so just know that that’s coming into the community, and if you think that object would be useful for you… I know I’m going to be wearing it every day.

Rebecca
I’m going to add it. These too.

Natalie
Yeah. I love you, Bec.

Rebecca
Love you.

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