Rebecca
And Bec — two very different sisters who come together to reframe some of life’s big and small problems. We’re moms, writers.

Natalie
We have soft boundaries. We see the world differently, but we both lean into vulnerability together and with our guests, because we like deep dives. So come with us — let’s reframe something.

Pop culture is supposed to be light — downright crazy. Or, as we discovered in our conversation with celebrated Canadian Author Jen Sookfong Lee, it can be a bridge to navigating really major complexities of intergenerational trauma, reckoning with one’s place in the world, and, perhaps most poignantly, the facing of the self. We hope you take Jen’s pop culture wisdom and use it to help you reframe some of your own self-work — because we did. Reframing trauma through pop culture with Jen Sookfong Lee.

I was texting with a girlfriend of mine last night — and she’s a librarian, so this is like the biggest compliment ever, right, to get something like this from a librarian. And I said, “Ooh, we’re interviewing Jen Sookfong Lee on our podcast tomorrow.” And she was like, “Oh, fancy.” And I was like, “That’s really cool actually,” because first of all, this friend doesn’t drop compliments — like, you know, that’s not really her jam. She takes a while to sort of warm up to an idea. She’s really thoughtful, she’s really going to think it through. But I know she has ordered your books for her students in their library. So I thought that was kind of a win to start off.

Jen
That’s like lovely — like, I am literally never called fancy. I’m not fancy. Like, this is not, like… I’m wearing a Gap sweater with a stuffed panda bear behind me. I’m not fancy — but that’s very sweet. I appreciate the sentiment behind it. Librarians have been my greatest supporters for many, many years. So we love our librarians, yeah.

Natalie
Well, that’s the thing, right? They’re the fans in many ways that sort of allow for a book like Superfan to come about.

Jen
Yeah.

Rebecca
I mean, you’re so prolific, which was something that was striking me as I was reading Superfan. When you’re able to reference, “Oh, and then there was that book I wrote, and that one was kind of bad, but then I wrote another book, and then…” Like, it’s a lot of books.

Jen
Yeah, I have been writing a lot over the years, although it doesn’t ever really seem like it when you’re in the middle of it, I guess. I never am not writing — maybe is that the thing? Like, I think I stopped writing for about two years after my son was born because my brain just was not working, as most people who have, you know, birthed a child know. But really, I always just have a book on the go. Having said that, the pace that I have been keeping for the last… I want to say 10 years, 15 years, I’m not sure I can do it forever. I probably won’t. I’m 47 now. You know, I said this to my partner the other day: if I, like, got hit by a bus tomorrow, would I be ok with my output? Yeah, it’s fine. It’s fine.

Natalie
That’s really good. See, that’s interesting that you say that, because at 45, I’m like, I’m not sure how good I am. I’m not sure I’m ready to, like, get hit by any buses because I feel like my output — I need, like, a lot more.

Jen
Oh, I don’t want to get hit by a bus. I do not want to get hit by a bus. I’m just saying, like, I don’t have regrets about what I’ve done, yes. And I’m by no means finished — well, maybe.

Natalie
Well, ok, so in Superfan, which we’re just going to dive right in because we have sort of been doing a bit of a series over the last little while on kind of pop culture-adjacent writers (and I say adjacent because it’s, like, built right into the description of your book, the last guest that we had on it was built right into the description of his book). And yet, it’s never just about pop culture — it’s like a vehicle, it seems, right, as a way through. And I mean, you describe it as a lens through which you’ve written this book. So Superfan is in many ways about your family, right? I mean, that’s what this book is about.

So in Superfan, you write of your family: “As you grew older, the memories of good times with your family faded, receding into a murky dreamscape that I was pretty sure wasn’t accurate.” So that idea that memories are not accurate, I think can be really scary to a lot of us. Like, what is actually then real, even when I think back on my life, right? I mean that can feel really sort of, “Ahh!” — and yet you go on to say that you turn to those memories and a little bit of magic realism (which I was, like, totally here for) to make your family whole again. I thought that was just such a brilliant reframe. So can you just tell us a little bit more about that process?

Jen
It’s funny because I think when I started writing, I was mostly writing fiction and poetry — where truth and facts play no part, pretty much zero. And I came to writing nonfiction kind of late in my life. I really only started dabbling in it probably in my late 30s. And I would say that I am the sort of writer who has never been beholden to telling the truth in an objective sense. And then as I was writing that book and as I’ve been doing some other projects here and there, I’ve come to understand something, which is that the purpose of memory is not to be like a document of what has actually occurred. We have, like, The New York Times for that — we don’t need our memories to do that.

The purpose of memory is to sort of filter out what’s useful to the person who’s remembering it. Well, not filtering out — filtering out all the extraneous stuff, and for us to remember what’s going to be important for us moving forward in our lives. And I think there’s, like, an actual neuropsychological term for this. I don’t know what it is, I’m not a neuropsychologist, but when I was writing Superfan… I have four older sisters — like, there’s a lot of people in my family, and my four older sisters are all readers. There is no way I get to have a book come out and they don’t read it. That has never happened. So when I wrote the book, I was very, like, conscious of: I can only write what I remember. I can only write my experience and, you know, what that is for me in terms of meaning.

And when my sisters read it, they all had interesting things to say, but the sort of consistent thing that they all said was: it’s so interesting how we can all have lived in the same house and remember sort of the same events, but how it’s so totally different for all five of us. And I think that that’s first of all very mature of my sisters to not be mad at me, and second of all, it’s just a really, like… it’s sort of this thing where I just think it helps us to understand that means then that we’re understanding and trying to see other people’s perspectives, as opposed to fighting about the same issue because we have different takes on it, if that makes sense.

Natalie
I like that a lot, because Becca and I, as sisters, we have actually experienced that specific line — like, it’s so interesting having been in the same house and remembering something so differently. Or I guess being in the same house, but being in different rooms, right — so, like, really honestly seeing totally different things when that thing might have happened, whatever was the memory that one of us kind of calls up. And so it’s, like, truly an alternate vantage point that kind of offers different perspective in. So that is very mature of your sisters to be able to. I like that framing.

Rebecca
Do any of your sisters, would they go, “It was, like, a super fun childhood?”

Jen
You know what’s funny? Years ago, this happened — this is probably, I want to say, eight or nine years ago. One of my sisters, she bought my family home from my mom, and then she renovated it and she made a suite for my mom so my mom was still living in the same house, in the same neighbourhood and felt, you know, comfortable. And I said to her, “Good for you for doing that. I would never do that. Some of the worst memories of my life are in that house.” And she said, “What? What are you talking about? I had such a happy childhood.” And I’m like, “Oh, good God.”

But I think what she means is that specifically, because my sisters are quite a lot older than I am, when she was a child my dad was healthy and he was with the family a lot, and the three oldest sisters were together as a really tight unit — the three of them are quite close in age. And so she felt like that was really nice. She doesn’t mean about our relationship with our mother, but she meant, like, that other stuff. And she said to me, “Why was your childhood so sad?” I said, “Do you not remember dad dying when I was, like, 12?” Like, I was like, “For heaven’s sake.” Anyway, yeah. So sort of, but not really. Yes, I did have.

Natalie
It really is quite powerful to read somebody else’s sister story, because there are so many sisters in your book, and Becca and I really… I mean, we’re working on our own book right now that’s very much tied together with our own sister story, and through a very specific trauma. So it’s just really quite powerful to feel like we’re in this — Jen, we’re in this with you. Just saying.

Jen
No, I actually think it’s kind of really interesting. Like, I think women who have sisters and no brothers, or maybe we don’t care about the brothers — but let’s just say we don’t have brothers. I think it’s a very particular experience, that sort of, like, construction of a family. So weirdly, I have a group of, like, five best friends from high school, and half of us have all sisters, no brothers. I don’t think that’s that common. And there’s a reason, like, I think we’re kind of drawn to each other, because there is a way of relating to people, there is a way that we view sort of, like, reciprocal relationships — like, all of those things. And I think perhaps more importantly, like, there’s a way of nurturing people who are your peers, as opposed to being nurtured by parents, or having to nurture — like, I always think sisters nurture brothers. I don’t know if that’s true, but I always think, “Thank God I didn’t have a brother so I had to take care of them.” Like, you know?

Natalie
And you have one little person, right — like I do.

Jen
One little guy, yes.

Natalie
Yes, and same. And my husband has three brothers — well, I guess there’s the three of them. So the three of them, they have a very specific bond. And I think that there’s much out there around brotherhoods, you know, in, like, literature and film. And I’m like, “Bring on the sisterness.” So I’m interested in that, anyways, but I’m also always curious looking at my Frankie and kind of going, “What will be your story, because who have you had to, like…?” For him it’ll be cousins.

Rebecca
It’s gonna be cousin and aloneness.

Natalie
Cousin and alone. That’s what it’s going to be, oh my gosh.

Rebecca
Come on, let’s just get real.

Jen
I mean, that’s my kid. He has, like, a million cousins and he’s the only one in the family — the only kid, so…

Natalie
Really?

Jen
Yeah. I only have one son, but he’s got a million first cousins.

Natalie
Ok. Well, we’re going to have to compare notes later, because there’s some real stuff there. So you write of pop culture, and your whole family’s draw to it, that: “Maybe we were missing privilege and whiteness, but we could watch what everyone else was watching and try to close the distance between us and them.” And I love how you italicized the ‘us’ and ‘them’ in that phrase. I thought that was just such a… well, it drew my eye in for sure. And we had a conversation with R. Eric Thomas, and in it we kind of bandied about the notion of pop culture as a relational bridge — that, basically, pop culture can be a bridge-building experience between uses and thems, that’s me now borrowing your sort of terms there. So does that term resonate for you, the idea of the bridge?

Jen
Yeah, for sure. And I think, especially when I was growing up (and I think we’re all about the same age), like, in the eighties and nineties, there were only so many cultural events that everybody could partake in, right? So, like, everybody had the same jean jacket from the Gap. Everybody watched the same episode of Seinfeld. You know, everybody did sort of the same thing. And it was something that when you’re going to work, and let’s just say you run into a coworker that you had a conflict with, but you could say, “Did you see that last episode of Seinfeld?” and there’s immediately a relational bridge that happens.

And even now, if you think about it, because everything is accessible online, so much of what happens in pop culture now can be like — I mean, we call it a viral moment, but I like to think of them as sort of these, like, global water cooler discussions that we have. Like, currently it’s Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce, you can’t get away from it. And, like, everyone’s talking about it and it’s fun and it’s silly and it’s kind of like, you know, the famous blonde singer dating the football star. Who can make this up? It’s so good. And I think all of those things help us have conversations about something that can be quite fluffy, but they are also, in another way, a relational bridge into also talking about things more meaningfully if you want to.

Natalie
Have you been inundated with Random Man from Atlanta, which is like a TikTok thing right now?

Jen
What’s Random Man from Atlanta?

Natalie
You know what, I’m not going to do it to you.

Rebecca
Nat, you have to tell us now.

Natalie
I think she’s, like, honestly ready-made to be the biggest actor ever, but she’s this young woman who ended up having a baby with a guy. She had to move to Michigan to be with him, and then after her C-section, basically, like, 30 days after her C-section, he left to go back to a former partner. And so she started posting these videos almost just like, I think, as a way to sort of vent about this crazy experience that she was living through, which was that this random man in Atlanta left me in Michigan with this baby. And the baby’s adorable, and she’s with her parents — she actually looks like she has it super together, but I guess the best part of all of her videos is that he left behind his t-shirt presses.

So she started making merch with, like, “Random Man from Atlanta” on these t-shirts, and so everybody’s buying them. TikTok is just, like, blowing up over this. And I’m 45 and I know this shit and I think this is like… I don’t know what this says about me, but the relational bridge-building I would be doing if I was hanging out with my former teenagers, when I used to be a high school English teacher — like, this would have been my in.

Rebecca
Would they have been aware of it? Like, teenagers are watching this too?

Natalie
Well, they would have seen it because you can’t miss it.

Jen
It’s TikTok, they would know.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Jen
I bet my kid knows what this is. I should ask him.

Natalie
Ask him — honestly, ask him. I haven’t actually gone so far as to follow her account but she’s, like, a good storyteller — so just saying.

Rebecca
Jen, can you talk about Bob Ross? Your love of The Joy of Painting — which I really appreciated those moments, and how it was really soothing for you as a teenager. And do you still view it that way, or would you still watch a rerun of that if you could?

Jen
Yeah, I still do. I think it’s still on Netflix. My bobblehead Bob Ross is downstairs, it’s not here in this particular room, but my t-shirt’s in the closet somewhere. I love Bob Ross with so much purity of heart — and I don’t love anything that innocently. You know, for me, it’s a combination of the things that everybody loves about him, which is he’s very chill, he’s very calm. His voice is lovely — like, it’s very soothing to listen to. And, like, the paintings themselves are very easy to look at. Like, ok, they’re not challenging, of course, but nobody ever claims that he was, you know, Picasso or anything. But I love him because there are a couple of things that he always sort of reiterated to the viewers, which was: you can do this if you want, there are no mistakes (just happy little accidents), and every tree needs a friend. So, like, these things to me are, like, mantras to hold onto for the rest of your life — like I think they are all true, and they’re all, like, resonant.

He very rarely granted interviews to media. This was not something that he liked to do, because I think what he didn’t want to do was, like, destroy the magic of the show. He didn’t want to critically analyze his own show and then have that destroy it for people. But one of the things he did say was that he really didn’t like people all that much. And if you look at his paintings, there’s never any humans in them. He thought humans were a scourge upon the earth, basically — I think he was kind of like an eco guy before there were eco guys. And he really just didn’t feel like humans were doing a good job. So he never put them in his paintings. And I was like, “You know, you are so ahead of your time, Bob Ross.”

Rebecca
But did you watch him with your sisters? I forget.

Jen
I watched The Joy of Painting with my… Penny. I gave them fake names, it’s very hard to remember the names. But Penny, after my dad died, or actually around the time he was actually sick and then after he died, we would watch it together every Saturday. We’re the two youngest. So when my dad died, we were both quite young still. And we didn’t have men in our lives. We didn’t have boyfriends, we didn’t have, like, anything like that. So at the time we didn’t know what we were doing. We didn’t know we were doing this because we missed our dad. But in retrospect, it’s so obvious that we were doing that because we missed him. Because my dad, you know, also was a bit of an artist, also was a very chill, sort of soothing guy. So it was like a gentle man, you know? And so watching Bob Ross I think helped sort of smooth over parts of our grief in ways that were really helpful. And if Bob Ross were still alive, I would send him a letter telling him so.

Rebecca
So you call Superfan “A mixtape filled with loved and hated cultural moments and the people who inspired them.” And then you call these people “A messy, performative, gossipy family that carries you along even when you know deep, deep down, you don’t belong,” which is a really cool alternative presentation of chosen family. Do you see it that way?

Jen
Yeah, I think so. And I think that when, let’s just say you’re somebody who doesn’t have access to a community that will really understand you, especially when you’re young. Something like pop culture can sort of fill that gap in for you until you’re old enough or have the resources to find people to be your chosen family — like, actual people you can meet and not, like, Keanu Reeves, who I haven’t met. And I think that that’s, like, a really comforting thing — to feel like someone understands you, even if you’ve never actually met them. And I know for a lot of young people, if they’re looking at song lyrics, for example, and they really feel like this particular song speaks to them, and if they watch a movie and they see themselves in it, or they feel a connection to the character somehow — those sorts of relationships, I think, can be really valuable when you’re somebody who feels unseen, or you’re somebody who feels unsupported in some way or, you know, not cared for. It’s a chosen pop culture family, I guess. I could have used that term, but I didn’t think of it until this question. Yeah — thank you, thank you, thank you.

Natalie
You’re welcome.

Rebecca
And now, some housekeeping. Hey Reframeables: do you get something from these conversations? Would you consider becoming a supporter on Patreon? For as little as $2 a month, you could help to keep this show going. It’s meaningful financially, and relationally — it feels like a hug. For our Patreon supporters, we do mini-episodes which we call Life Hacks and Enhancers — our five best things in a week. You could also tip us on our Ko-fi account, where Natalie’s recipe book is also for sale. Oh, and tell us what you want to hear more of — listener messages make our week. And don’t forget to subscribe to our newsletter. All the links are in our show notes. Love, Nat and Bec.

My oldest daughter is 15 and she loves kind of the sad, angsty music, and it must be she’s seeing herself in this chosen family of these…

Jen
Sorry, that’s my dog.

Rebecca
Oh yes — I feel like I know your dogs from stalking your Instagram.

Jen
She’s actually right behind me. She’s right there.

Natalie
Oh, hi.

Rebecca
Oh, hi there.

Jen
She’s so mad I’m not sleeping and having a nap. But anyway, I’m sorry, go ahead.

Rebecca
Are you a napper? Do you nap?

Jen
I nap every day for 15 minutes.

Rebecca
Oh — same time every day?

Jen
Same time-ish. Afternoon — like, between, like, three and four usually, but I swear I’m really good. I wake up after only 10 or 15 minutes and then I, like, can actually keep working. If I didn’t do that, I don’t think I’d get anything done.

Rebecca
I aspire to that kind of orderliness in my life where I, like, always do the same thing at the same — no, I really, like, that’s a dream of mine, where I could be like, “I nap at three o’clock.” That’s going to take me forward. I’m going to try it. Anyway, I’m saying chosen family — so Elsie, she really relates to these lyrics. Like, Nat, you’ll always come in the car and be like, “Oh, are we listening to sad music again?” And I’m like, “I think our family loves it for some reason, and we just do what Elsie does.” So it’s like, if we’re listening to sad music about hard things, we’re like, “Yup.”

Jen
I love this, because there are different genres of sad music, right? So, like, the one that I make fun of the most, I call “sad divorced dad music,” which is, like, The National, or, like, Bon Iver or, like, that kind of thing.

Rebecca
Yes.

Jen
And then there’s, like, sad teen girl music, I think, is probably different. Would that be Olivia Rodrigo?

Rebecca
Yes.

Jen
Ok.

Rebecca
Yes, totally. I should have been specific because you’re right. Nat will point out, like, Bon Iver — she would be like, “Oh, I can’t do this.” And my husband and I are, like, we’re really into it. We’re like, “Yeah, we’re feeling this,” for whatever reason. But yeah, like, Olivia Rodrigo and stuff is what Elsie’s doing.

Natalie
And I can get into her — like, I’m ok with her sadness.

Rebecca
But what’s the difference for you, Nat?

Natalie
I think… I want to hear Jen. Go.

Jen
I also don’t like sad dad. I don’t like sad dad music. No. You go ahead. You tell us why.

Natalie
You and I are both divorced.

Jen
Oh yeah.

Natalie
So we have lived that story out. So maybe there is something a little bit about, like, a time that it kind of just conjures up for me. And I’m like, “Teenage angst,” I’m like, “You’re going to get through it. Cool.”

Jen
There’s two songs I think about in relation to sad divorced dad music, and then one of them is the duet that Bon Iver did with Taylor Swift that’s on her Evermore album — I think it’s Evermore. That one. And then one quite literally called Vancouver Divorce by Gord Downie of the Tragically Hip. And those two songs… man, like, I listen to them and I’m like, “Yeah, that’s a divorce. Don’t care. I already had all those feelings, and I don’t need to hear it from the man’s point of view. I really don’t care. Like, just stop it with that.” My ex-husband does actually listen to all that music. He loves Bon Iver, Cage the Elephant, and I’m like, “God, get over yourself. How much, like, Jack White do I have to listen to?” you know? Like, not that I have to listen to it, because we don’t live together anymore, but anyway.

So the thing that I like, there’s a particular genre of sad music that I like, which is sad dance music. So thinking about, like, Sam Smith or, like, even Dua Lipa. I think she says in one of her songs, “Glitter in the sky, tears in my eye,” or something. I’m like, “Yes, that is exactly how I feel. There is glitter in the sky and a tear in my eye.”

Natalie
Yeah — no, I’m with you. I like that. I like that description a lot, and I think that for me, it’s very time-based. So, like, I think there were a certain set of songs that I listened to when I was sad, and then there are other musicians that I know I would attach to another time that I’m like, “I don’t need you,” — like, that’s not sort of helpful for me in terms of my own head space. So I sort of shelve them. Though I actually weirdly really like that one Taylor Swift Bon Iver song.

Jen
It’s his best song.

Natalie
Like, that one I can, like, yell — like, I quite liked that one. Like, I’m, like, really singing it.

Jen
It’s actually quite a good song. If you listen to it, like, musically, the way it’s structured, it’s quite good. They sing nicely together and it might be my favourite Taylor Swift and Bon Iver songs.

Natalie
Right? And Elsie said to me the other day, Bec, that Taylor performed it at one of the concerts that she’s watched online alone, and that it was even better.

Jen
Oh, she does it alone — oh.

Rebecca
Oh wow.

Natalie
Mm-hmm — and I’d like to hear it with her alone, because then maybe that would, in a good way, I was going to say ‘reify,’ but there’s no way to make that good. It would make it good, like, to just sort of hear that again — like, through her voice alone. Anyway, there would be something to it. But I get into pop sad because I still like that little bit of sparkle — I like how you just said that. There’s something there that kind of zings it up, and in the car, I’ve got this Manchester-born dude in my life who listens to, like, really, like, down stuff — I mean, like, everybody’s really sad in Manchester all the time. So honestly, my son and I feel like we have to, like, to perk everybody up a little bit with our music choices in the car.

Rebecca
Do you guys know Gracie Adams? Gracie Abrams.

Natalie
Oh, the one that opens for her.

Jen
I don’t know her.

Rebecca
Ok. And by the way, I’m really glad that Elsie doesn’t listen to this, because she gets so mad when I say their names wrong. She’ll be like, “Ugh, Gracie Abrams.” Anyway, she’s a good sad pop, but teens love it.

Natalie
Her stuff is sad.

Jen
Ok, I’m going to listen to it, because that feels like it’s right up my alley. I also really have a soft spot for Julia Michaels and her sad music also.

Natalie
Really?

Jen
And who’s the other one I’m thinking of? Is it Maggie Rogers? Yeah.

Natalie
Ok.

Jen
Elsie might like Maggie Rogers.

Rebecca
Ok, Maggie Rogers — ok, I’m going to try. I love it when I can introduce her to stuff.

Natalie
Ok, well, I think this is a good segue because we’re talking about big feelings here, and your Instagram header (which I love by the way, Rebecca and I worked very hard on our Reframeables Instagram header), but you wrote, “I wrote some books, but mostly I leak emotions,” and I just think that is such a great line. And Rebecca actually used a line 10 years ago when she wrote an essay that had, like, leaky feelings in it. So I think that there’s something quite palpably there for someone with that sort of phrasing. So ours is all about having soft boundaries, and we constantly let people in and then we have to navigate the impacts of those entrances, because they often include exits. And that’s just kind of, like, part of what it means to kind of let people into your life for a time. And then how to constantly reframe, you know, “Ok, what did I get from that interaction because they’ve dropped me,” or, you know, whatever is the thing that kind of happens with human beings, right? So, I don’t know, how are you doing in your leaky emotions since this book’s release?

Jen
I’ll tell you what, I have a Pisces moon, which is not surprising to people. So it’s funny you guys should say about, like, soft boundaries because I have a tendency to really want to hold on to relationships. They could be friendly, they could be work relationships, it doesn’t even really matter — I want to keep them till the end of time, even when they’re not serving anybody anymore. And so one of the hardest things I ever have to do (and this is particularly true of my friendships) — one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do is when you have to let go of a friendship. And I think to this day, I’ve only literally let go of about five or six — and I’m 47. I really do hold on to them with an iron fist. So nothing actually makes me more down than losing a friend. That’s very, very hard.

I will say in the aftermath of Superfan coming out, I think that that period of time right before it was published and right after it was published was a really rollercoaster ride for me, because prior to this, I had not really written about myself. And when the media or, like, reviews or whatever (you know, even the Goodreads stuff) started coming out, people were talking about me — like, my life. And that was so difficult. Like, it was difficult because I was used to people talking about my characters, or, like, the craft of writing or whatever.

And they’re still talking about the writing craft stuff for sure, but, like, they’re also applying that to the way I wrote about myself and, like, my life. And the way people will, you know, say summarize Superfan, and they talk about things like intergenerational trauma and, like, you know, sexual assault, or they’ll talk about abortion, or, like, any of these things that I don’t ever walk around feeling like those are stuck on me with post-it notes, like, you know, through my life. So it was, like, a really hard thing to see people essentializing my book that way. But they have to — like, I totally get that they have to. I would do the same thing if I was writing about it. But that was really tough.

Like, I remember they did a feature about Superfan in The Globe and Mail when it came out online. It was, like, the night before it was, like, public and I saw it, and I was out for dinner in Toronto. Like, I had a book launch in Toronto with another writer and I read it while he was in the bathroom and when he returned I was crying. He’s like, “What is it?” I said, “It’s The Globe and Mail.” He’s like, “Oh, is it that bad?” I said, “No, it’s lovely.” But it’s, like, so much about childhood Jen and all of this other stuff, and I was just like, “I can’t, I don’t even know.” I’m much more numb to it now because it’s been… gosh, eight months, nine months. But, like, in that first little bit, it was a super weird feeling.

Rebecca
And does it make you not, like, want to stop opening up that way in your writing? Or are you just like, “Oh, I just had to get used to this,” get used to what this was.

Jen
I think I just had to get used to it. You know, I’ve talked about this before with my writing, which is that it is a very common thing where racialized women are always presumed to be writing, you know, autobiographical fiction. We’re always presumed to be writing about ourselves, whether we are or we aren’t. And a journalist asked me a question about that and I said, “Well, you know, it’s been something that I think when I was younger would have really bothered me.” But now (and you know, this interview was maybe three years ago) and I said, “Now I don’t really care,” in the sense that, like, the separation of the work from the artist doesn’t matter to me as the artist. If you want to think we’re one and the same, go for it.

But also it speaks to how I live my life, right? Like, my work is very central to my life. It’s very central to my personal life, it’s very central to my family life, all of those things. My identity is so tied up with being a writer that I don’t think it matters to me if the reader perceives me as being one in the same with my work — like, I don’t care. So I don’t think that, like, I ever was afraid of those things. And I don’t think — even moving forward, if I wanted to write another memoir, maybe I will, maybe I won’t. So it doesn’t stop me from that. I just think I just had to get used to it, and I had to, like, get, like, a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle shell on and just make my way, you know?

Rebecca
Have you been like, “I would never have said that I had intergenerational trauma.” Is that what you’re saying? You wouldn’t have walked around saying, “I lived through intergenerational trauma.” But someone’s just like, “That’s what happened to Jen.” And then people are like, “I want to relate to that.” Everyone wants to relate. Is that part of what’s happening?

Jen
Yeah, I think that’s part of it. And I think that also, even though intergenerational trauma is, like, a truth, like, it’s a fact of my family, it’s not something I think about all the time because we couldn’t get through our days if that’s what we were thinking about all the time. But, like, I think what happens then is people want to, as you say, relate to it. And then when I meet people or they talk to me online or whatever, they really feel like they know me. And that’s really weird. And, like, when you meet people at, like, events, like at what I have, they’ll be like, “Oh my God, Jen,” and they talk to me like I have known them for 20 years. But I get why they think that, because they read my book, right? Like, I get it.

Natalie
I don’t know, Jen, if you saw this — you liked it, which was very generous of you. But I posted a little tweet, and I included it in your thread because I was basically saying that I had done that to Christy Turlington.

Jen
Yeah yeah.

Natalie
And it was, like, at a party that I went to and like, because we talked for five minutes, in my mind we were now like colleagues. I didn’t go really as far as, like, friends, but it was like, “No, no, no, we have, like, a connection.” And so then the next step was gonna happen. And I mean, I’m a relatively savvy people person, but it happened — like, my parasocial self came, like, out hardcore, and Christy Turlington and I…

Jen
Well, I did an interview with Ethan Hawke. Like, I did an event with him, and I, like, legit thought we were best friends after that. I said to him at the end, which is so unprofessional, I was like, “Oh my God, if I ever see you at, like, a writer’s festival in, like, New York or something, if I come running up to you, please don’t get your security to tackle me.” And he’s like, “Never, I’ll never forget you.” And I’m like, “That is such a load of hooey,” — but, like…

Natalie
In the moment, that was beauty.

Rebecca
I wonder what that says about all of us. We just really want to… oh, just that’s, like, this deep longing?

Natalie
I think so.

Rebecca
To connect with people? Or you think, like, it’s something more sinister?

Jen
I think for some people it could be really sinister. I think that like, you know, some famous people, their fandoms are a little sinister.

Rebecca
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah.

Jen
Some people — like, a lot of famous people don’t seem to have that problem. But some of them seem to. I think it can be really sinister. I will say that, like, for me personally, it’s rarely been sinister. There’s been, like, over the course of my life some stalkers and stuff, and people who just hate me, and like… but that’s not very often because, like, I’m an author, right? Like, I’m not Taylor Swift. But I think we’re looking for connection with the person — like, the famous person or the person that we’re looking up to. But I also think we’re looking for connection, like, within the fandom itself. And, like, you know, whether it’s readers or movie viewers or whoever, we’re also looking to connect with those people, to share something with them. So I think it’s all of those things wrapped up into one, you know, messy ball.

Rebecca
So we like to get people’s take on this, this is in your wheelhouse. Do you have a take on the Barbie monologue?

Jen
Oh, the America Ferrera one?

Rebecca
Yeah. Were you like, “I don’t care,” or did you have a strong…? We’ve talked about it because my daughter was crying and I was like, “I felt nothing.” I was like, “Uh-huh,” and she was weeping. So I couldn’t, like, just roll my eyes at Nat, who was also with me, because I didn’t want to, like, discount what my daughter was feeling.

Jen
I also felt nothing. And I want to say it’s a generational thing. I think we were raised to feel nothing about stuff like that, because I don’t know, I felt nothing. And I also felt like none of this is news to me, so… so? Is that awful? I feel like, you know, the Barbie movie, which I did not see because I’m very contrarian about, like, things that are really, really hyped in that way, and also I can be very contrarian when I can tell that the marketing department has spent millions of dollars on a campaign — I will see it eventually.

And then what also gets my back up about that thing was just this vision of femininity or this vision of what a really, like, sort of free womanhood looks like. I was just sort of irritated by the whole thing. But that monologue by America Ferrera is actually quite good. It’s not that I disliked it. It’s not that it wasn’t well written. I thought she delivered it really beautifully. I thought all of those things were good. Yeah, being a woman sucks — we already know this. Like…

Natalie
We know it.

Jen
I don’t know if it’s entertaining to me — like, you know?

Natalie
Right. It was interesting sitting, because I was two down, right? It was Bec and then Else, and so I’m sort of observing that Else is feeling something really big there and that Bec’s not. And I’m also not, but at the same time I’m feeling for my niece. And I think that because I spent 20 years in the high school classroom, I do feel very attuned to, like, those big teenage feelings because I was not attuned to my own. So it’s like I got to live out teenage feelings sort of in my observations of youth. And it’s like they softened me or something. So, like, whatever edges I had, you know, over time through adulthood where everything, you know, fucked me over — like, they would like bring me back down to, like, my heart or something. So there was something lovely for me and Elsie with that one.

Jen
I will say that I think that younger people, like our kids’ age and maybe even a little bit older, they’re much more willing to express their feelings than we ever were. And I find that quite interesting and fascinating. It’s probably good — because, like, I hear like my kid’s friends tell each other that they love them. And, like, I literally told no one I loved them till I was probably 35. Like, what is this? You know, that’s nice. So if Elsie is having her feelings, good. She should have her feelings.

Natalie
I agree.

Rebecca
Totally. I’m glad I checked myself. And she was like, “I loved it.”

Natalie
You were having a good mom moment, Bec. That was really good. I was fully there for it.

Rebecca
Thank you.

Jen
Good for you. Because the instant would be, like, “Why are you crying?”

Rebecca
I know. You know what? I did — I almost looked at her and went, “Are you crying?” And I knew that would have been the worst thing to do.

Natalie
Ok — so now, in your book, you talk about having a celebrity nemesis. At the time it was Gwyneth — again, resonant right there. I was feeling it.

Jen
No one likes her.

Natalie
I found that very interesting — yeah. So please tell us a little bit about that, and if you have anybody new.

Jen
Well, Gwyneth Paltrow is a lot of people’s most disliked celebrity. And I think it’s no surprise. She is very, you know, snooty. She seems to be aspirational. She seems to think she’s better than everybody else. And when I was looking for evidence of her actually saying that she thinks she’s better than anybody else for the book, I found so many examples — like, it was not hard to find. So that was easy. But, like, where it falls apart for me is that she was always, as an actress, in these sort of, like, really literary films. Things that I, if I was an actress, would have loved to have been in — and that started it for me.

And then if you dig a little deeper with her, she’s, you know, obviously comes from a world of privilege. She always had, like, a head start at anything that she ever tried to do. And then it only got worse, right, when she started Goop, because it’s an aspirational lifestyle brand that seeks to sell things to people who probably have less money, probably have less access than her, and are probably really, really unhappy with their lives, because why else would they buy the things that she’s selling them, that she’s promising is supposed to make them happy? And that to me is, like, a monetization of people’s sadness, and that seems really horrible. So writing that chapter was really easy. Writing about somebody you hate is so fast — like it’s just, like, it’s so easy. Like, it’s so funny because, like, I’ve had people say to me, “I never really quite understood why people hated Gwyneth Paltrow, and then I read your book, I’m like, ‘Oh, I get it. Jen explained it so clearly.’ And I’m like, ‘Yeah, you see?’”

Do I have a celebrity nemesis? I really, really don’t like Gwen Stefani at the moment for a lot of reasons, mostly because she kept saying she was Japanese. I’m like, “No you’re not. Like, you’re actually not.” Anyway, that, and she seems to not really learn from it. She’s been double downing on that for 20 years. That seems really strange to me — like, what kind of bubble do you live in that you’re not quite learning that? And the other one that I think might be terrible is Katy Perry. And I used to actually quite like Katy Perry. And then in the last few years, I’m getting the distinct feeling she might be setting herself up to be my next celebrity nemesis.

Natalie
Oh no.

Rebecca
No — why?

Jen
There’s a lot of things. There are things that she says as a judge on American Idol where she is particularly hard on other women, and that I don’t like. And particularly, like, she thinks she’s being funny, but she’s actually saying things that are quite hurtful to female contestants. Yeah, cutting about maybe they have too many children or maybe they got married too young or, like, just things like, why would you even go there? Like, that’s not the point of the show. Anyway, I have a suspicion she supports, like, gross billionaires. I’ll have to dig some more, you know — I don’t want to get sued by Katy Perry. I feel like there’s something. If anybody listens to this and knows something, yeah, let me know. I would love to know the dirt. It’s a feeling.

Rebecca
Because you just sense it.

Jen
I sense it, yeah.

Natalie
Well, you’re in tune, Jen. You wrote a whole book on it. So I think you’re allowed to.

Jen
Gwen Stefani is easy. That’s easy. Nobody likes her right now. Yeah, it’s fine.

Rebecca
Yeah, ok. What about Drew Barrymore? Are you like, “Oh yeah, her too,” or are you feeling more compassion for her and her thing on the writer’s strike, like…

Jen
Yeah, the thing is I like Drew Barrymore. You know, like, I find her charming and I think she and I are the same age and I’ve always kind of really enjoyed her. Like, when she would talk about her childhood stuff and she wrote that really quite terrible memoir, Little Girl Lost, when she was, like, 14, which I devoured also at 14. I have some sympathy for her. So her TV show, her talk show actually brings in a lot of viewers. It makes a lot of revenue for the network (I don’t remember which network it is). And I understand that she is the face and, like, she is the brand that they’re selling. It’s really based on her personality more than anything. And I do understand she’s under a lot of pressure, probably, from the people with the money, the executives who are making these decisions. And I get why she would capitulate that to them.

But what I think is perhaps something that she needs to learn is that the show is nothing without her. It can’t continue without her. They’re not going to fire her. They’re not going to, like, rip up her contract. So I think that this particular thing was partly motivated by how she devalues herself. And I’m being generous. There are lots of people who would say, “She’s just a scab,” or whatever, and I have sympathy for that too, because it’s like this particular writer’s strike was dealing with some really heavy issues, obviously. So that’s my feeling. And maybe I’m just saying that because, like, I’m a Drew Barrymore stan… but like, yeah. I admit I could be biased.

Natalie
No, but that’s fair. And that’s interesting too, right? I don’t know what that says… like, who are some of the authors? That idea of, like, never meet your heroes, right, is such a real thing. Like, when all of a sudden that person that you read through a period of time that you really loved. Like Jonathan Franzen for me when I was reading him, I don’t know, The Corrections for me was like, I connected to that book for whatever reason at that time. And then I kind of later go, “Oh…” There’s a whole podcast calling him Mr. Horrible. I think it’s…

Jen
Oh yeah, people don’t like him.

Natalie
Yeah. So then I’m like, “Oh man.” I’ve got to, like, reimagine all of my, like, heroism — for an authorial voice, let alone for what we do with, like, these kinds of more socially visible figures.

Rebecca
I wonder if you had met Bob Ross in person.

Natalie
Right.

Rebecca
If that would have been destroyed — like, if he was a grump.

Jen
Oh.

Rebecca
Would that have hurt — like, just knowing him in that from afar?

Jen
Yeah, that would have hurt. Although everything I’ve ever read said he was lovely.

Rebecca
Oh, that’s good.

Natalie
But then he was probably really on the mark then to sort of keep himself so hidden because there was a recognition — as you said, like, it could be destroyed.

Jen
It could be, yeah.

Natalie
This is a fragile space.

Jen
Nobody knows what people are like in their personal lives, right? And then the other thing that I think we have to understand too is that everybody goes through life being hurt and hurting others. There’s just no way of not doing those things. And, like, we all do things we’re not proud of. But, like, if Bob Ross has done anything bad, I truly don’t want to know. I truly don’t.

Rebecca
There’s some things you don’t want to know.

So this book is this threading together of all these pop culture references from Hailey to Justin to Kris Jenner. Would you say it’s even more an autobiography or a biography of your mother?

Jen
I think the book is a lot about my mother. It’s more about my mother than I ever thought it would be when I started writing it. And I mean, my mother is a figure that looms, like, in all my writing — like, just motherhood in general. Fictional mothers and, like, mothers and daughters and, you know, all of that. I think it’s so much about my mom. And I think that for most people, for most readers, they ask me a lot about my mom. That’s the thing that they usually want to talk about, and it’s usually because everybody has some kind of conflict with their mother — so they want to talk to me about it, and it’s fine, I’m here for that.

It’s funny, because writing about my mom is not hard. These issues with my mother are so old. These are things that, like, after many years of, like, counselling are things that I can talk about quite freely — and that’s fine. You know what’s funny? My sisters of course obviously read the book and, like, their replies are, “You’re so sympathetic to her.” And I’m like… And my one sister’s like, “I would have been way meaner.” And I’m like, “Well, that’s on you. You can write that book if you want to.” Yeah, it is a lot about my mom and that’s kind of ok, I think. My mom lived, is still living, a rather invisible life because she didn’t, you know, start a business, she didn’t write a book — she, you know, had a life at home with her, you know, little community. So maybe it’s ok that I write about her — I don’t know. She can’t read English, so I have no idea. And I like it this way, so it’s fine.

Natalie
Ok. But Jen, your last line was poetry to me because she says (I’m just going to give this little spoiler because I don’t think it ruins anything), but your last line is her saying to you, “And I hope you were kind to her,” — like, kind to this mother figure, right? I mean, like, you were. Bec and I have moments, right — just, like, sisterly moments where we’re discussing whatever is, like, some moment of irritation, that I know our kids will have those same kind of conversations later about us. And I think that very heartfelt phrase of you hope that kindness underscores those conversations at all times — just simply because of the humanity of it all, my gosh. Like, the mothering project.

Jen
Yeah.

Rebecca
But did you set out to do it with kindness — or you actually, you’re just revealing yourself there?

Jen
No, I didn’t intend to be kind to her. I intended to be honest, I think. It’s not hard for me to be kind to my mother. I do love my mother, you know? And now that she’s well into her 80s, she’s quite delightful in many ways. She’s quite funny. The grandkids think she’s the greatest, because to them, she’s just, like, kooky grandma who says weird stuff and they all laugh their heads off — like, this is fine. But I just wanted to be honest, because the thing about my mother (as is true for most people) is that they’re not 100% bad and they’re not 100% good, and trying to be, like, honest about somebody means recognizing when the good stuff occurs, and when also the bad stuff occurs. So in general I try to write with generosity, maybe perhaps, as opposed to kindness, if that makes any sense. A full picture of somebody, rather than thinking about trying to be kind specifically.

Rebecca
And it’s probably because you’re giving this full picture, that’s probably related to the idea of people thinking they know you because you’ve opened up pretty wide, and people go, “Oh.” I think people are attracted to that kind of honesty.

Natalie
Yeah. Oh no, for sure.

Jen
I think that’s how I walk through life in general — pretty honest. I mean, I don’t think I’m a liar — could be, I don’t know. I don’t think I am. One of the things, like, my current partner says about me is that when I go into, like, a social situation, he says that it’s very easy for people to like me. I ask a lot of questions, I remember your kids’ names — you know, like, things like that. And he’s like, “How do you, like, do that?” because he’s, like, an introvert and, like, a Scorpio, so he walks through life assuming everyone hates him, like, all the time.

And I don’t do it. It just is. I want to know things about people. There’s a part of him that doesn’t quite believe that I want to know — like, he doesn’t know why I ask questions. Like, how do you know how to ask questions and the right questions to ask? And I said, “I’m only asking these questions because I want to know.” I want to know what’s going on with people, right? I think that sort of, like, writing with generosity or writing whole pictures of somebody also comes from curiosity — just about humans in general.

Natalie
The magic of representation is something you also write about in the book, especially in relation to pop culture — like, who shows up on screen and who gets to see themselves on screen. And I mean, right now, Rebecca and I are in the midst of putting together a television show that would actually have kids with various disabilities all playing leads on the screen, and it not being about their disabilities — it’s just that these kids are on screen. And this is something that, like, right here in Toronto, the Disability Screen Office now exists to basically make space for more of those stories. So that’s something you describe in the book. Is there something that you would sort of add to your own kind of thinking on it now as, like, a woman in her forties, as a mother, the idea of that magic of representation?

Jen
Yeah — I mean, you know, what’s interesting to me is that seeing how my kid reacts to representation in culture and how I react to it, they’re entirely different things. So, like, in his lifetime, right, we’ve had, you know, films for children like Turning Red. There’s American Born Chinese on Disney+ right now with Michelle Yeoh, which is great — we were watching that. There’s been, like, quite a lot. Like, he has not in his memory lived a year of his life without a big pop cultural thing that he could consume featuring people who look like him. He doesn’t know a time without it. And so for him I think it’s very much just how life is, right? But it also helps him — like, there’s never a moment where he thinks he can’t do something. He doesn’t like math, so he doesn’t want to do math stuff, but there’s never a moment where he thinks he can’t do it because there’s always been somebody doing it who looks like him, or whatever. And I think this is where I can see the results of that sort of, like, efforts in representation actually making sense and making something really interesting, because my child also doesn’t ever walk through the world like he doesn’t belong. He never thinks he doesn’t belong. I don’t think he’s ever had that thought in his life. And I think that that’s, like, a really beautiful thing.

So when I wrote Superfan, I did write it partly for girls and women like me or, you know, anybody who sees themselves in me a little bit, to know that writing a book like this or being an author is possible. And I wanted to write something that spoke to them sort of, like, culturally and racially and, you know, in all those ways. And I think it’s definitely been an interesting ride, because I just did a guest thing at a university class, a first year university class. So these are, like, 18-year-olds, and there was, like, 70 of them. And so many of them said, “I’ve never seen myself in a book as much as I see myself in this one.” And I said, “Ok, if Superfan is the book that helps them see themselves, then I’ve literally done everything I ever set out to do as a writer,” right? They said that — and then there were a handful who just told me I reminded them of their mom. Thanks kids.

Natalie
Anytime.

Jen
Yeah, great. Your mom seems cool, we should hang out.

Natalie
That’s beautiful that they shared that with you — I don’t know, like one of those lovely surprises that you didn’t know was coming, right?

Jen
I actually didn’t expect readers that young to connect to it. Because obviously I’m their mom’s age — like, genuinely, quite literally. And I expected, you know, maybe readers as young as 25 or 30 and, you know, older. And I didn’t even really think that that young would make any difference to them at all. Because like a lot of these things, they don’t know who Bob Ross — well, no, they probably know who Bob Ross is. But they don’t know, like, a lot of the things I was talking about. Do they know who Bell Biv DeVoe is? Of course they don’t — but, like, I think they should. But they don’t — anyway.

Natalie
They should.

Jen
So that kind of thing is a really beautiful surprise to me.

Rebecca
I do think there must be something about people feeling unseen, but it’s a different kind of unseen now. Do you think there’s something there? Like, I’m thinking about my daughter — like, I’m like, “Why would you feel unseen? You’re a white girl.” Maybe it’s the social media. You’re hitting on something universal, but different — do you think?

Jen
I think you’re probably right. I think that, like, sort of representations of self in social media is very curated. So I think that they still don’t really see themselves in many ways. Like, I think that that kind of, like, sort of level of, like, what people are supposed to look, like, or what people do look like — that kind of stuff probably makes them feel pretty bad about themselves sometimes, and about what they actually look like or what they feel like. I know it makes me feel bad. I mean, you know, mom Instagram is the worst Instagram. When they have, like, their kids in matching clothes and they’re, like, dancing through the cherry blossoms, and I’m like, “Who can get their kids to do that? Not me.” Also, I don’t want to. That’s not a hill I’m going to die on — like, please. Anyway, so, like, I think for the kids, maybe that’s the primary driving thing that makes them feel excluded. It’s probably that.

Natalie
I’m seeing your dog needing his mama.

Jen
She’s rolling in the blankets.

Rebecca
Oh right. Let’s do a quick speed round to end. We used to do this, and then we stopped doing it — I think it’s kind of fun. Ok, are you ready?

Jen
Yeah.

Rebecca
As fast as you can. What’s the last new skill you learned?

Jen
French braiding my hair.

Natalie
Oh, that’s a good one. How would your siblings describe you? One word for each of them.

Jen
Loud. Raunchy. Ill-behaved. Funny. And a good cook. Those are the five.

Rebecca
Ok, what do you need to be creative?

Jen
Utter and complete silence.

Natalie
What is a common myth that people misunderstand about what you do as a writer?

Jen
Oh, it’s just writing. Like, you just sit there and you write — but it’s not. There’s, like, a lot of, like, research and you have to take long walks to clear your head, and sometimes you have to do interviews. And, like, also, like, if you do things that is, like, non-fiction, you know how much time you spend on citations? It’s not, like, actual writing a lot of the time.

Natalie
That’s a good one.

Rebecca
Ok, and lastly, now that we know you’re a good cook, what’s for dinner tonight?

Jen
I’m not cooking tonight. I’m going out because it’s half off wine bottles at one of my local restaurants, so that’s what’s happening.

Natalie
That’s brilliant. Jen, thank you for this. Thank you so much for just hanging out with us and giving us all this insight into what has been, like, a really quite a powerful book over here from two sisters.

Rebecca
Yeah, we really enjoyed it.

Jen
Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

Rebecca
And I did notice, Jen, that you picked up on my daughter’s name. Elsie — you heard it, and then you said it back to me, and I was like, “She was listening.”

Jen
I’m really good like that. People’s names and their kids’ names, dog’s names especially, never leaves it.

Rebecca
That is the way to people’s hearts, yeah. I feel seen — I feel seen.

Jen
I can’t believe how much my dog has been a part of this — like, she has been putting on a show for both of you.

Natalie
We feel seen.