Rebecca
And Bec — two very different sisters who come together to reframe some of life’s big and small problems. We’re moms, writers.

Natalie
We have soft boundaries. We see the world differently, but we both lean into vulnerability together and with our guests, because we like deep dives. So come with us — let’s reframe something.

Bec, I’m having Cannes withdrawal. Now that I’m home, I’m back to watching Marvel shows with my guys — and though you know that I love a good action TV show, I am missing the nuance.

Rebecca
I’m filling the hole with The Pitt — with a beefier Noah Wyle. I’m kind of into it, and his hoodie. We actually touch on The Pitt in our conversation with our guest, Michel Ghanem.

Natalie
Better known as TV Scholar. He’s French, he’s smart, and he does some serious research on what’s out there worth watching.

Rebecca
We talk about how he left academia for television…

Natalie
And his column for The Cut, called Appointment Viewing is essentially, like, him being a curator for your TV time.

Rebecca
And when he comes back to Toronto for TIFF we’re going to hang out, and maybe we’ll get a follow-up episode out of this new friendship.

Natalie
Over Lebanese food, which we will share.

Rebecca
So let’s get into it: reframing screen time with TV Scholar Michel Ghanem.

Natalie
Ok, Michel Ghanem, we’re so excited to have you here. But I shouldn’t even call you that — because, I mean, people know your name, but people really know you as TV Scholar. Like, that’s the name that is how I found you, anyways. When did I start following you? I started following you on Instagram, I think, but then I followed you to Substack. And that was such a fun experience, following somebody who made the world of TV into this intellectual exercise — which I’m into. Like, that was very definitely something that I was down for and excited about — and obviously lots of people are, because you have columns and writings everywhere, and all the things.

So let’s just go back to your earlier academic days. You have a master’s of arts in fashion studies from TMU, and you wrote a thesis on costume design and madness on television through the lens of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. So you have to tell us more.

Michel
Yeah. Well, thanks for having me, first of all. I’m super excited to be here. And yeah, of course you can call me TV Scholar anytime. Yeah, you know, one thing I’ve noticed from interviewing other TV academics in my newsletter is that a lot of them kind of take this winding path to get to TV. There aren’t undergraduate degrees in television studies in Canada, at least. You have to go into, like, communications or, you know, some sort of media-affiliated program, film studies. The route that I took was through art history in my undergrad, because I thought at the time that I might want to work in the fashion industry. I think it just had something to do with, like, my affinity for visual culture. I was kind of recently out as a gay man and excited to explore these artistic worlds.

And it wasn’t until I was in my master’s program in fashion studies where I was like, “Oh, I don’t love the fashion industry so much.” And I think it has to do with, like, some of the critical theory I was reading, learning more about sustainability. And I was like, “I don’t love fashion as, like, a system as much as I thought I did.” And not to say that television doesn’t have, like, a capitalist lens on it whatsoever.

But I took a class in fashion and pop culture where we spent two weeks just looking at fashion on TV, and there was something about that where it just sort of clicked. I was like, “Oh, I can actually study TV from an academic perspective,” and that’s when I sort of started writing about it from a freelance perspective. I started reading more about it and researching it, and then I ended up writing my thesis on this small but iconic musical TV show, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend on the CW, which was sort of my case study into looking at how fashion and costume design was used as a tool to construct identity — specifically in this case in regards to the character’s mental health and what she was going through on the show.

And I’ve never actually published the thesis anywhere. I used it to get into a PhD program at TMU, which I guess infamously dropped out of during the pandemic when, you know, the world shut down and I decided to go back to Victoria. And ultimately I decided I didn’t want to be an academic long-term. But yeah, that’s sort of how I found my way to TV Scholar and writing about TV.

Natalie
I really love that it was about the costuming, because I mean it’s obviously super interesting where you’ve gone now in terms of your work around writing television proper, right? Like, it sort of has expanded to include stories — like, it’s not just that one sort of case study that you started with and you continued on with, but in that Becca and I also work in film and television, some of the most underappreciated folks on a set are those folks who are crafting that visual image, right? I mean, like, somebody when their title is “art,” you know what I mean? That it can mean a lot of things, and the story that is told through literally the clothes that we wear — I think until we really read about it and think about it and discuss it with others, which is what’s so cool about your work, is that then maybe people take things for granted? Like, is that something that you would say in terms of just, like, the adoption of this identity of putting on clothes can be just sort of assumed as opposed to unpacked?

Michel
Yeah, definitely. I think what I learned from writing that thesis was just how much work goes into the visual identity of a show, whether it’s from the perspective of, like, what they put in the script or what comes up as they’re making it. I think the general public might not even realize that, like, there’s a separate Emmys night the weekend before the proper Emmys just for the creative arts and the costume designers to honour their work. And I always thought it was such a shame that they don’t kind of combine that into, like, one big evening where everyone can be celebrated equally because yeah, there is so much that goes into it. And it made for a really fun and fascinating academic approach because there was just so much there.

And I think what a lot of TV academics also say is because the field is so interdisciplinary, a lot of folks who are going into it are sort of carving their own path. And so I found that no one else had looked at, at the time anyway, at costume design, mental health, television, and how those kind of came together. So yeah — unfortunately, I think there were parts of academia that were, like, kind of traumatizing to be in. And after I wrote that thesis and kind of moved on, I was like, “I don’t want to look at this anymore.” Even though, you know, I feel like there was interesting work done in there, I very much felt I had to, like, clean slate, move on from it — which is interesting.

Rebecca
Is that because of the competitiveness of academia? Or just some personal kind of situations? I’m just curious because I get so mad at academia — just for you, Nat, maybe I get mad at it.

Michel
Yeah, I think it’s a culmination of things. I think I found it hard to wrap my head around, like, doing this work while being in such a precarious position. Like, I was never sure — am I going to end up with a job after this? Like, I’m not really making that much money. There’s a huge personal cost to being in academia. And I found that, like, very kind of overwhelming and lonely. And I also wasn’t really surrounded by people who were doing work. It’s so isolating — like, no one’s doing exactly what you’re doing. And so no one can really provide community, you know? Whereas now, like, through TV Scholar, I mean, thousands of people are at my fingertips to bond with over what I’m watching and thinking about. I also just don’t think at, like, 23 or however old I was at the end of my master’s program I was, like, best-equipped to be in academia. And of course that’s, like, the age they want you, when you’re fresh and excited about all these different ideas, and…

Natalie
And willing to live on nothing.

Michel
Yeah, willing to live on nothing and, you know, with very little experience outside of academia. I guess it was a year ago now I reapplied to certain programs to see if I could continue my PhD, and I didn’t get into any of them because there was such a big gap, I think, between having been in school and not. And they really want people with, like, continuity of academic work — which means nothing really outside of that context. But yeah, so I was like, “Ok, I don’t need to go back.”

Rebecca
Had you already started your Substack at that point, and all this kind of work you’re doing?

Michel
Yeah, I was writing. Yeah.

Rebecca
Yeah, see, they’re so not clever. They’re not creative or whatever.

Michel
No, I don’t think they really even can understand how big social media and Substack… you know, I was writing my column, and I’m part of, like, critics associations, and it doesn’t really mean anything to them unless you’re publishing in, like, journals. If I’d come in with, like, five publications and academic journals, it might’ve been different. But yeah, I was like, “Fine.”

Rebecca
Yeah. You know, I just wanted to say the spouses of academics are also traumatized — because my husband, he did a PhD in science and I just remember the stress of being so poor, and just that his supervisor was a superstar and had become a superstar in his field in his master’s. I think everyone in his lab recognized that they were never going to be able to be what he already was. And he had done it so early, so there was kind of a shadow over, I think, his whole lab — that there was this person that no one could live up to what he had done. So everyone was sort of defeated from the beginning.

Michel
It’s so stressful.

Rebecca
So yeah, I’m traumatized still from those days.

Michel
Yeah.

Rebecca
In your column for The Cut, Appointment Viewing, you help readers to find TV that cuts through the noise, yes? And you wrote about Dying for Sex with Michelle Williams. Does that one cut through the noise for you?

Michel
Absolutely, yeah. You know, writing that column isn’t always easy because I have to pick one show every month out of everything that’s coming out to say, “OK, this is, like, the show you should be watching.” And sometimes there just aren’t that many good new shows that come out. And so sometimes they’re really scraping the barrel for, like, what, you know, I can spotlight. And there have been a few shows that I’ve picked for the column where I’m like, “Oh, this is, like, good enough,” you know? But Dying for Sex was, like, a no-brainer for my editor and I. We were both, like, obsessed with it.

I think, you know, for those who are listening and haven’t watched, it’s an FX mini-series that follows Michelle Williams as a woman who receives a terminal diagnosis and decides to leave her husband and pursue discovering herself sexually, I guess. She’s sort of in pursuit of an orgasm with another person, and she’s under the care of her best friend played by Jenny Slate. And it was just so raw and real and funny, and sort of tackles, like… I don’t know, all these different perspectives to being a caregiver experiencing cancer and, like, chronic health issues, friendship — like, friendship outside of the lens of, like, romantic relationships. I’m not a big crier in general — I sometimes think I watch so much TV that I’ve become, like, immune to crying to TV. But the finale — I shed some real tears. I was just, like, thinking about how short our lives are on this planet and, you know, how much we take for granted — including orgasms, I guess.

Rebecca
Yeah, I liked it too. I haven’t finished it. So I haven’t seen that, like, culminating episode, but I loved the rawness of it too. Like, I think I’m really craving that on TV right now. I started watching Four Seasons — do you know that one?

Michel
Yeah, the new Netflix comedy with Tina Fey.

Rebecca
Ugh, just as a contrast with how shiny it is.

Natalie
Like, too canned, is that the thing?

Rebecca
For me it is, but what do you think? Just as a contrast.

Michel
Yeah, I’m trying to think of a way to say this that won’t upset, like, Netflix PR people who follow me, but yeah — I mean, I think Netflix has perfected this kind of, like, assembly line television a little bit where, you know, there’s always something new, which is great. You know, there’s always something to try watching. But I find their quality has kind of declined over the years, where maybe they’re going for quantity over quality.

And this is what I hope that people get from following me — is, like, I like to go out of my way to find a show that I think is worth your time. And so it’s kind of funny — every time there’s a new Netflix show that comes out, within, like, 24 to 72 hours I’ll get, like, 30 DMs from people being like, “Are you watching Four Seasons? Are you watching whatever the new show is?” And that’s not typically the case — like, I like to kind of take my time and figure out, like, is this show worth talking about and writing about and watching? Like, I love to watch TV, I watch so much of it — but, you know, I’m only one person running this account so I have to be strategic. And I also actually work a 40-hour unrelated job on top of what I do, so I try to be specific.

Rebecca
I feel like that one is very much like they’ve got the algorithm — like, we know that people like Tina Fey and Steve Carell together. Anyway, now I just want to ask you about every show and what you think. Nec: It was funny though, right? Because Becca and I watched the beginning of the Michelle Williams one together when we were on a writing retreat. So the two of us had gone away, we had a bunch of scripts that we had to write. It was like that was going to be our little bit of downtime — was watching a show. So we picked pretty carefully because it was like: what do we actually want to put in our brains in a time where there’s this sort of demand for creative output different than the output that comes from writing grants — you know, like, more administrative sort of work, even though that does require creativity too. So it’s all these processes.

And it was nice to just feel — like, that’s what was interesting about that show. So interesting that you as a not-crier still cried a few real tears. Because my husband is not a crier and I would be interested to watch just the final episode with him and see if it would bring something up. Because it doesn’t necessarily have to be about, like, those characters, is it? Like, sometimes there’s just emotion attached. So maybe that’s what was missing from the one that you’re watching already, Bec. I haven’t jumped into Four Seasons yet — I’ve only been getting clips sent at me on TikTok.

Rebecca
And come on, Nat, just admit it — you’re not going to watch it. Don’t even pretend.

Natalie
I’m not. I’ve seen the ending on TikTok, I know. So, like, I don’t need it. I’m good.

Michel
I mean, I think there’s a space for, like, comfort viewing and for, like, watching shows that maybe aren’t groundbreaking or going to move you to tears. Like, I’ve gotten very into Real Housewives in the last two years, although, like, I think there’s a critical lens on that too. But yeah, I think it just depends on where you’re at and your embodied experience and what you’re bringing to your show.

I also kind of have this belief that shows kind of come into your life at a certain time. Like, the way that people talk about art or books, I feel the same way about TV. Like, sometimes a show that I’ve been ignoring for six months I finally randomly decide to watch. And it turns out it’s, like, very connected to what I’m going through in my life, or there’s some sort of, you know, character that I get really attached to. So sometimes I’m like, “Oh, this show just isn’t for me right now.”

Rebecca
Right now, yeah. What’s your quick hot critical take on Housewives — Real Housewives? What were you thinking there?

Michel
It’s about friendship. It’s about complex, you know, dynamics between women. It’s about the hyperreal. I think there’s so many perspectives that you can bring to Housewives beyond just like, “Oh, this is just women getting together and fighting or yelling at each other.” I think it’s also, like, comfort viewing for a lot of people, but I think there’s…

Rebecca
Why is that? Because I have some good friends who are like, that’s, you know, their mainstay viewing. So why do you think it’s comfort viewing? I’ve never quite connected to that.

Michel
I think it’s just the way that the arcs are put together — like, it’s just really careful producing work. And also realizing that, like… I think Garcelle, who was a housewife on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and recently left — I think probably a few housewives have been asked in reunions, like, “Oh, how did it go?” And their reaction is always like, “Oh, I didn’t realize there were no scripts.” Like, they just turn on the mic and you go. But it’s the way that the editors take the friendships and their stories and put them together out of hundreds and hundreds of hours of shooting where you get to follow, like, a story. And I think there’s so much work put into that arc that is so satisfying to watch.

But I think it’s just all very, like, clever when you kind of take a step back and realize, like, they’re coworkers. They know they’re showing up to work to make good television. And so, you know, that’s why they will be very particular about, like, what they choose to talk about with their friends on the show — which is why so much conflict comes up, because they know they’re there to talk about whatever they’re going through, whether it’s, like, a interpersonal dynamic or something going on, like, in their life. There just also happens to be, like, way higher stakes on the show than you think there are. Like, multiple housewives have gone to jail — like, have been in tax fraud situations. Like, and just that there’s something kind of, I guess, titillating about these big crises that they go through. Yeah.

Natalie
You know, I had reached out to Denise Richards’s agent about one of our projects because of a relationship in her world. So it wasn’t her specifically, it wasn’t going to be her acting, but it was her relationship and then potentially supporting one of our properties. And I pulled back — they responded very quickly. They were like, “What do you want?” And it was one of those — where I got scared, because I was like, “Well, actually we had just had a conversation with someone.” You know, when you were talking about, like, going to jail, you know what I mean? Like, all the things that can happen. There was some stuff surrounding some of her life that all of a sudden I was like, “Maybe I don’t want that attached to this specific property.” And so then I just stopped.

So it was an interesting producer moment in my head because I had, like, jumped at something that I recognized was a potential opportunity and then pulled back out of fear. And so I’ve got to give it to those producers — like, they have a lot of room to sort of just go with the drama. Like, the titillating works for their property — but it doesn’t always. So it’s interesting — like, all those little dramas out there. Who gets to make use of them?

Rebecca
It has to stay in that world, almost.

Natalie
Yeah.

Michel
Yeah. Interesting.

Natalie
I know. So there was that one. Ok, who’s a fave interview for you? Like, I was really kind of excited about your… how do I say her last name? It’s Gugu Mbatha-Raw, right?

Michel
I think it’s Mbatha-Raw, yeah.

Natalie
Mbatha-Raw. I know her from Loki. My family, we love that show. So her in it, she’s, like, so horrible in the best way possible. But yet she seems really lovely from your interview.

Michel
She was so lovely. I mean, yeah, I can say she was, like, super wonderful, very open, very kind. And I was a huge fan of her from the Black Mirror episode San Junipero, and I was so excited because I had previously interviewed Mackenzie Davis, who was sort of one of the two leads of that episode. And Mackenzie Davis was actually my first ever actor interview, so it was kind of full circle to interview Gugu, you know, some time later.

But yeah, I mean, picking one is so challenging. I feel really lucky that I haven’t had a single bad experience. And people love to ask me that. They’re like, “Oh, what’s, like, a horrible actor interview you’ve had, or someone who’s been rude?” I have not had a bad experience. I will say, I guess one experience that stands out to me: the actress Sarayu Blue, who was in Expats, and she’s currently in Good American Family, I believe, with Ellen Pompeo. She had this amazing underrated performance in Expats and we had this wonderful interview. And then afterwards we connected on Instagram and kind of became internet friends and, you know, now we kind of chit chat and she tells me to, you know, reach out to her if I’m in LA to get food together.

And I think 10 years ago, if I would have told, like, early 20s Michel, you know, depressed in grad school, that I would become, like, friends with the actors I interview, it would have blown my mind. So I kind of think of that as, like, my gold standard of interview experience. And it’s just a bonus that she’s like the most sweet person I’ve ever met.

Natalie
Aww.

Rebecca
So will you do it, if you get to LA? Will you get food with her?

Michel
Absolutely, yes. Well, she told me that there’s a Lebanese restaurant she loves in the city. So I have to go try that.

Natalie
You have to go represent.

Rebecca
Yeah. Ok, Derry Girls. You know, it’s so Irish, but it hits so globally. Like, what do you think of that one?

Michel
I miss Derry Girls all the time. I feel like we took it for granted, just how fun it was. And, you know, I’m not going to compare it to Say Nothing because I got in trouble on Twitter over that a while ago. Which, I don’t know if you’ve watched Say Nothing…

Rebecca
No.

Michel
But it’s based on a book based on these real stories about folks in the IRA during the Troubles. And the two shows actually share a director and they both take place during the Troubles, but they’re completely different tones. Like, Say Nothing is, like, a very serious… like, full of real people. Obviously Derry Girls is very funny and, you know, all about their misadventures.

But I think you can kind of find pieces of Derry Girls across TV if you look for it. You know, Nicola Coughlan is in this Tubi comedy Big Mood, which I really liked. And so if, you know, you like her comedy, I think that’s a good one to check out. There’s also this kind of TV Scholar favourite comedy Big Boys, which stars the Derry Boy of Derry Girls, Dylan Llewellyn. And I also think the Derry Girls creator has a new show coming out on Netflix soon, so…

Natalie
There could be something.

Michel
Yeah, I’m sure it’ll be, you know, just as good. So I think for those who are keen, I think Derry Girls exists, just in a different way. But you can always rewatch it. You know, I’m very pro-rewatch.

Natalie
But do you think it hit at something… like, is that interesting to you, the idea of something being so hyper-local but hitting globally? Like, what could be a thing about it that did that?

Michel
I think it was just like quality writing and performances, and I think also just the Netflix impact of being able to reach so many different people. And I also think it was just specific enough to be something you felt you hadn’t seen before, but broad and funny enough that, like, most people watching would get a laugh out of it. And I think Schitt’s Creek is a show that did that really well as well and, like, connected on so many different levels. Although Schitt’s Creek wasn’t always that specific in terms of its location. I always joke to my friends how, like, they specifically never mention Canada but you know they’re in Canada so that it’s, like, relatable to anyone in the US watching.

Rebecca
Which I don’t know if they would do that now, right? I mean, certainly in our moment now of our rising patriotism, do you think that, like, a Schitt’s Creek that got made today would be more specific?

Michel
Good question. I would hope so. I mean, I’m all for, like, representing the location that you’re filming in. I mean, this is kind of a different perspective, but then I think about all the shows that are filmed in Canada now that masquerade as somewhere else. It’s so funny watching The Last of Us with my friends and we’re all like, “Oh, that’s, like, that building downtown, and oh, that’s that hotel downtown, even though they’re saying they’re in Seattle.” So yeah, I would hope so. I would hope so.

Rebecca
Sometimes people ask us if we make money doing this podcast. The answer is we don’t. In fact, every hour we spend on Reframeables is time not spent at a paying gig. And the steps to making a podcast are actually many. Finding the guests, booking the guests, reading the books, planning the questions, editing the interview, uploading it into the podcast world, making the artwork. So if you value this podcast, please consider supporting it with a financial contribution. Memberships start at $6 a month on Patreon and include a monthly extra where we record our five things in a week. In this world we have to support what we love, and with that support an energy comes back to us — so thanks for going to patreon.com/reframeables and becoming a supporter. It doesn’t really make a lot of sense to be making a podcast, but here we are, three years later, still doing it with your help. So go to patreon.com/reframeables — now, on to the show.

Rebecca
Do you ever think about transitioning to writing? Since you’re someone who’s analyzed a lot of TV, do you feel like that…

Natalie
Like, writing for TV, you mean?

Rebecca
Yeah — like, would that interest you?

Michel
Yes. I think my focus is, like, mostly on writing about TV and I have a lot of goals — like, I would love to write a book about TV. I think in terms of writing a script, it would just depend on, like, time. Like, if I had the time and money to do it, I think I would take a stab at it. I don’t know if I’d be any good at it. Like, I find writing dialogue feels really unnatural and I really respect the work that writers do to bring characters alive because I don’t know if I have that, like, natural inclination to be able to do that. But, you know, who knows? I mean, I won’t say I’ll never do it.

Natalie
Well, watch out. You might end up writing on our team. We might just grab you.

Michel
Oh boy.

Natalie
We jumped from Derry Girls, though, to something much more dark because I wanted to ask you about This Is Going to Hurt, which is that BBC medical drama that you had also written about, right? Like, that piece — again, so many shows end up being introduced to me through my scrolling on TikTok, and so I’ll get these little clips. And I had seen a few clips of that one, and then have enjoyed some of those actors in other much more comedic pieces, but that one is, like, really raw — to the point where I didn’t watch the whole series. I went and found a little bit of it and I was like, “I don’t know that I can handle this.” First of all, maybe give folks, you know, a little bit of a background on the show, but also would you say that in terms of TV trends that that kind of challenging piece would still be welcome today because the world is a different space than it was even just in 2022 when that one came out?

Michel
Yeah, for sure. Well, we all love Ben Whishaw — especially kind of post-Black Doves on Netflix, I feel like a whole new kind of group of viewers sort of discovered him. So he stars in this miniseries, which is based on a memoir written by a doctor where he’s in the… what’s he called? The birthing unit at a hospital in the UK. And he’s sort of overworked, overwhelmed, trying to navigate his marriage. He’s trying to be a mentor to Ambika Mod, who is the actress who went on to star in One Day, which I think is where a lot of other people sort of discovered her. And it really tackles, like, the mental strain of working, you know, to that level.

And I mean, the show is set in like 2006, I think. And so it has this almost period drama quality of capturing that moment in time. It takes place in an NHS publicly-funded hospital and you’re like, “If it was that bad then, I wonder how it is now.” And I think, you know, being in Canada, we also think about this in terms of the quality of our public health services and all of that.

But in regards to your question, like, I actually think if it came out now, it would be more popular than it was before. And I think it’s just because we’re in this kind of medical drama renaissance with The Pitt kind of exploding and becoming this massive moment — which I think The Pitt and This Is Going to Hurt are kind of in conversation about, like, being very real about what it is to work in that setting. And you know, there’s also like, Pulse on Netflix and Dr. Odyssey and I’m seeing a lot of people are rewatching ER, and I’m someone who is still watching Grey’s Anatomy season 21.

Rebecca
So is our mom. So is our mom.

Michel
I need to hang out with your mom and have a chat. Yeah, so, like, I’ve watched a lot of medical TV, and This Is Going to Hurt, to me, is still, like, one of the best miniseries that takes place in the healthcare context and really tackled, like, mental health and suicide. I won’t go into that because it’s a spoiler to what sort of happens, but the show does take a very kind of dark twist halfway through.

Natalie
That’s interesting — ok, I didn’t expect that answer, and I like that. I love when I get unexpected answers. I really thought that we were in a time right now where we didn’t want… like, people want cozy crime. Because I think there’s something interesting — that’s what I’m hearing at meetings, but that’s not what’s actually hitting on the screen. As you just describe, all of what’s kind of getting pick up. It speaks to potentially some disconnect between what industry is being guided towards and what audiences are asking for, which perhaps speaks to why your newsletter is actually, like, a real resource — beyond it being funny and you’re interesting and all these cool things, but it can actually give, like, audiences a chance to have a bit of an opinion in a real way. Like, not just in the numbers way, which is what usually happens, right? It’s sort of, like, what gets downloads, that’s what counts.

Michel
Yeah, thank you. I think The Pitt is, like, such an interesting case study in making a show that I guess shouldn’t have been as big as it was. And it’s primed for, like, Emmys and all of that. I mean, this is a show that was 15 episodes, which goes against a lot of what I’m also hearing in terms of, “Oh, we need shorter shows, and people don’t have attention spans,” and all of that. It aired weekly for 15 weeks. And if you want to talk about the numbers, like, it picked up more and more viewers as it went along. And I realized it was such a big thing because I went to my friend’s house and his parents were like, “Oh, we love The Pitt,” you know? And when the parents were watching it, you know it’s, like, hitting different demographics.

And it was a show that took place completely in a hospital. A massive ensemble cast — like, very diverse perspectives and storytelling. It’s not something that I think was, like, very carefully packaged based on, like, intellectual property on a big franchise. Like, all the things that the executives keep pushing out, hoping it’s going to make them a bunch of money. And The Pitt is probably, like, one of the biggest dramas of the year. I also don’t think there was as big of an appetite for medical TV right after the pandemic, because we were all burnt out of thinking about hospitals.

Rebecca
Any last secret you want to tell us about — about something we should be watching that we might have missed, or is there one you always bring out? “This one. This is the one.”

Michel
I think I’m always, like, shouting from the rooftops about My Brilliant Friend and how good of a show that was — and is. I think it’s, like, criminally underrated. It was an HBO production in collaboration with an Italian production company. It’s based on the Elena Ferrante novels, which are, like, a staple of every book club, I feel. And it was just so magically made. Like, I always, like, can’t even describe it because I’m like, “I’m oh-so-moved by it.”

Rebecca
Why do you think it didn’t get as much pickup? Do you think just because it was not Netflix, or…?

Michel
Yeah, I think the foreign language shows or the non-English language shows always have a higher barrier to entry. I think Squid Game was an anomaly because it was, like, so violent that the violence surpassed… you know, they came for the spectacle. I don’t know if, like, an Italian language drama that is, like, kind of more grounded and real — I don’t know if it...

Rebecca
And based on female friendship. I think it’s misogyny.

Michel
Yeah. I mean, you know, because Elena Ferrante writes under a pseudonym, I always find it hilarious when people assume she’s a man. And I’m like, “You clearly have not watched the show or read her books — like, there’s no way. That’s impossible.”

Rebecca
I didn’t know that people assumed that. You’ve had people say that?

Michel
Yeah, there are a bunch of conspiracy theories online that it’s, like, some specific male author in Italy and I’m like, “He would never be able to write these complex female friendships — like, there’s no way.” Another part to your question that’s kind of interesting is I feel I’m in, like, a weird TV watching phase where I’m watching a lot more narrowly than usual. Like, this season that we’re in now, from, like, February to the end of May, is sort of the Emmys crunch time when all the shows are trying to get into consideration before the deadline cut off, and there’s usually so much. And shows are getting dropped, like, left and right without promotion, and it’s so hard to figure out, like, what is actually good? And then just in my personal life, like, I feel like so much has been going on — like health stuff and whatever. And so the only thing that I’ve been, like, actually binging is the show Couples Therapy.

Rebecca
Oh yeah.

Natalie
It’s good.

Michel
Yeah — which I’m like, “This is so just real and raw,” and I think… I don’t know. It makes me feel such a range of emotions. It’s so well put together. Yeah, there’s been something about it, and going back to that thing about, like, a show not hitting at the right time — like, I tried watching it four years ago when it first came out and I was like, “These couples are so annoying, they should just break up.” And now watching it, I’m loving it.

Natalie
That’s interesting to me because again I don’t know how you’ve experienced… I keep referencing TikTok, but that’s how a lot of TV has been coming at me. So I have had these shows curated for me, but just in snippets. So, like, it doesn’t mean anything until I go watch the whole story. But obviously these snippets do mean something because they’ve at least gotten my attention. So I think it’s fun reading your pieces because I go, “Ok, this is the whole thing.” Like, it’s not just a snippet — it’s bigger than the social media experience of just these little timestamped moments that maybe we’ll have to come to later.

But what TikTok does do well is it brings stuff back. Like, I think that when I was introduced to that BBC show — like, I definitely learned about it last year, but it had been out since 2022. So in terms of things hitting in a certain moment, I think that that’s fine. We don’t have to be watching something in the moment — well, it’s not our job, anyway. It’s your job. We get the freedom to just kind of see what gets to happen, I guess.

Michel
Yeah.

Natalie
I had this question for you in terms of, like, “the medium is the message,” right? I wanted to ask you whether you felt there was a difference for you as a TV Scholar, because you chose that as your moniker, between TV and film in terms of an emotional resonance of sorts.

Michel
Yeah, the medium is the message. So true. I mean, I still like film. I don’t know if that catches people off guard when I say that as TV Scholar, but, you know, I love to shout out the Vancouver International Film Festival because they’re so kind and they give me a press pass even though all my work is TV-related, and they bring in, like, some of the best Oscar-winning films before it’s out in theaters. And I think it’s, like, such an underrated festival when we think of film festivals in Canada. It’s not as, like, loud and chaotic as TIFF — it’s very, like, relaxed, and exactly what you would think a BC International Film Festival would be.

But I think for me film has kind of become more of a communal experience. Like, I love seeing films with my friends. I love going to the cinema. I like talking about films that are out. I’m also a voter in the Dorian Awards, which is an award slate put out by a society of LGBTQ+ critics. And so I do have kind of a responsibility to watch films as well — or, you know, try and watch as many as I can at least. But it’s not as, like, personal for me as TV. I think that’s kind of what I come out feeling, where I’m not watching films often by myself. Like, TV is kind of my personal time.

And there’s something about sort of the journey of TV for me that is really important to me. Like, there’s something about a fictionalized universe over, like, multiple seasons, bonding with characters over years. Like, your mom knows with Grey’s Anatomy. It’s like I started Grey’s Anatomy when I was in, I think, like, seventh grade. It’s been a long time since I’ve lived in that world, and I’ve changed so much. And, you know, you sort of live your life in parallel to the stories of these characters. And that’s unique to television and that episodic format.

And I think a lot of people get caught up in the comparison of like, well, “Oh, well, TV is, like, as high quality as film now, and they have the budgets, and some of it’s even more impressive.” And I’m like, “I don’t know if quality is even unique to, or is budget-dependent.” Like, there are plenty of low budget sitcoms like Abbott Elementary… Well, I’m not saying that’s low budget, but I mean, like, you know, a show that doesn’t require a $600 million price tag or whatever, like The Last of Us, that is as valuable as the, like, prestige, huge tentpole shows.

Rebecca
I like that distinction, though, that you’re saying about TV being personal and film being communal. I really like that. And it validates both and, like, the personal moments on your couch alone — and sometimes that’s just how you want it. I don’t know if that’s what you’re meaning too, but, like… so are you thinking of your couch?

Michel
Yeah.

Rebecca
Alone.

Michel
I’m thinking of my bed. Yeah, I mean, you know, I’ve been single for most of my life and so TV has always been there. Like, my bed might be empty, but I have my laptop and I’m watching something. And yeah, I never imagined that it would kind of become, like, a career path for me, but I’ve always watched a lot of TV. My family, we loved, like, sci-fi, Star Trek, Stargate, all of that stuff, and watched a ton of it. And coming into university, I feel like I was just watching between so many different genres and without, like, a specific purpose — like, it just brought me joy and comfort and was kind of like my thing that I wanted to do on my alone time. So when I do end up in a long-term relationship, it’s going to be such an interesting discussion around, like, “What are we watching together, and what’s mine?” Because I don’t know if I’m going to be able to compromise.

Rebecca
Ok, I have to say on that point, my husband and I, we went to Chicago for the weekend. He had points so we stayed in this really nice hotel room, so we each had a different space to watch TV. So he was watching sports — like, something I didn’t want to watch. And I was watching that new Pedro Almodovar English language movie. And I was so happy, because we were together but watching separate things. And I was just like, “This is perfect. Because I just want to watch what I want to watch. I want to stop it when I want to pause it.” I don’t know — it was just like: alone, but together. But maybe alone is better.

Michel
Yeah, that’s ideal, I think.

And actually, I’m going to be in Toronto in July — I’m hesitating because it’s for a surprise trip for my friend, and we haven’t told him where we’re going yet.

Rebecca
Oh.

Michel
But I don’t think he is up on my podcast appearances, so I think we’re good.

Rebecca
But yeah, we should connect.

Natalie
Absolutely. Oh, that would be so fun.

Michel
Yeah.

Rebecca
Yeah. We also have Lebanese places here, ok.

Natalie
Yeah. Some really good ones, actually.

Michel
Oh, yes, I know.

Natalie
One right in the Junction, which is really excellent — so just to say. Yeah, no, that’d be good.

Michel
Oh, perfect. Yeah, I’m going to be there in July, and then I’m applying for a press pass to be at TIFF as well. So I might be back again in September.

Natalie
Oh, fun.

Michel
So yeah, we should definitely do something.

Natalie
Yay.

Rebecca
We’re friends now.

Natalie
Yeah, exactly.

Michel
I love it. Perfect.