Rebecca
And Bec — two very different sisters who come together to reframe some of life’s big and small problems. We’re moms, writers.

Natalie
We have soft boundaries. We see the world differently, but we both lean into vulnerability together and with our guests, because we like deep dives. So come with us — let’s reframe something.

Rebecca
Hey Nat.

Natalie
Hey Bec.

Rebecca
Ooh — you have the air of one who is inspired.

Natalie
I did sound quite light, didn’t I? I think it’s this resilience series we’ve been doing. It’s giving me a boost.

Rebecca
And who couldn’t use a mood boost these days?

Natalie
Seriously. I’m grateful for good people doing good things to counter all this mess — like Julia Stewart, our next guest. She’s the CEO of Alurx, a wellness company with a cool health app (that you should check out, by the way).

Rebecca
I hated missing this conversation.

Natalie
Well, we missed you — and actually, to be honest, Julia and I almost missed each other because of the fires that were happening in L.A. The day that we were supposed to record, she was being evacuated, and when we finally got to connect, we spent the first 10 minutes talking about the different organizations she was supporting in light of the fires.

Rebecca
Which we’ve linked to in the show notes. And honestly, I loved listening to this conversation. You talked about the resilience required as a business leader in male-dominated environments, the value she gains in being a mentor…

Natalie
And her very cool story of having started out as a waitress at Applebee’s and then, years later, buying the whole company.

Rebecca
So here we have it: reframing resilience with Julia Stewart.

Natalie
So we were just saying that you’re back in your house — so maybe just tell our listeners where you’re at.

Julia
Where we are, the Eaton fire is across the freeway, so you can obviously see it. And it was interesting — we just saw a ton of wind and, you know, we kept thinking, “Well, gosh, these winds are terrible, but this too shall pass.” And obviously I cancelled you, which was smart. And then that night, it got really bad, and I woke up thinking the house was on fire — but it wasn’t fire, it was smoke. And about an hour later, then we got the evacuation notice, so we all got out of here pretty quickly. And you couldn’t see — it was like fog. And we left for about six days because there was no power. There was no water. And you know, our damage was minimal. We have many friends who were not as lucky. So we’re hosting one set of friends who are living with us here indefinitely.

The good news is the community has come together. I live above the Rose Bowl, so there’s people everywhere donating clothing and food. But it’s a long, hard process. I don’t really know how to explain it to people. There are 7,000 children with no school to go to — I mean, it’s just crazy. But like I said, we are blessed and fortunate, and it’s just for those less fortunate. So, you know, I’m a big believer in charity starts at home, so I’m just giving wherever I can, however I can, and then obviously hosting people who are living with us. But it’s kind of surreal, I guess is the best way to say it. And then there are some people who are saying, “I don’t know if I want to rebuild.”

Natalie
What does that mean to them?

Julia
It’s just too much. Too hard. And maybe they just take the insurance money and start all over somewhere else. It’s just for a lot of people, rebuilding is a good three-year process, maybe more. You have to get in line. There’s remediation. You have to test the soil. It’s just a lot. And right now, a lot of the areas are so toxic from all of the fumes. You know, I think we as a nation learned a lot from 9/11 about toxic air. You know, we’ve learned and now we’re starting over, but it’s definitely been a process. And I think the best thing that those of us who, you know, made it through is: how can we help those that didn’t? So for me that’s been our focus as a family.

Natalie
I should jump right in with the questions that I had intended for today. Because I think they actually continue to speak to a lot of what you’ve just shared. Like, the you that I found on the internet and wanted to speak to was someone who, the very first article I read about you, described you as having been influenced by someone who was empathetic. And this was a manager that you worked for when you were 16 at the IHOP. And I think when I came across that quotation, I was like, “Ok, yeah, Julia is this person who really seems like she has taken on the mindset of empathy as, like, a base point for who you are as a leader.” That’s what it seems to me. So I want to give you the chance to just kind of tell us, as the young woman that started at IHOP at 16, what has that journey looked like — from empathy observer to now being this empathetic leader?

Julia
So I think early on I, like most people… you know, you’re an employee and you’re working your way through and didn’t have any money and working my way through college, but I think I had grown up with parents who were teachers and they had always taught me: learn, listen, learn, listen, learn, listen. So I was always looking at whoever my supervisor was, and in my head thinking there are things I want to be, and there are things I don’t want to be. There are things I see that I admire, and there are things I don’t see that I admire. And so what started out really as, you know, working at IHOP and just learning from things I liked and my own experiences — the day I spilled syrup everywhere and I was forgiven and, you know, all those like-minded things.

I think by the time I finally got into a managerial role, I really realized I want to practice what I really learned. And there are things I don’t like that I’ve seen in other supervisors that I don’t want to be like. And that notion of: it’s an honour and a privilege to lead. So if you’re going to lead, and it’s an honour and a privilege, then do it in a way that brings out the best in people. You know, all those expressions that you hear today, no one said back then. “Lift people up, don’t take them down,” and “Be a part of the solution,” and “Help people with their dreams.” I didn’t have those catchphrases back then. I just practiced what I preached. And so it was this notion that I wanted to be an empathetic leader.

And I always tell this story: by the time I got to Taco Bell, which was fairly late in my career, and now I’m in operations, I have this major role. I remember my direct supervisor doing a performance review with me. And he said, “You know, Julia, you’re really doing an amazing job. You have this huge territory and you have all these people working for you, but I find your management style exhausting.” And so I kind of was taken aback and I said, “Can you explain that?” And he said, “You just give too much, you care too much, and it’s just exhausting. You have to learn to put that facade on.” And I remember saying to him, “Well, thank you very much.” I saw it as a compliment and he saw it as a criticism.

And that was a turning point, I think, for me — realizing, “Ok, my leadership style has taken notice and there are people who find it exhausting. Great. I think that’s wonderful.” I have no intention of changing. It served me well. I intend to care. I intend to lift people up. I intend to try to find win-win solutions. And that stuck with me, and to this day, that sticks with me. So that journey was first one of learning and really watching. And there were bad examples and good examples. I think you asked me, you know, “What were some of the bad examples?”

And I remember early on — so I’m young in my career, and I’m looking at the CEO, or I’m looking at the senior person, or I’m looking at my supervisor. And now, this was early on in my career, but they kept hiring people who would tell them what they wanted to hear. And I thought that was, like… what a waste of time and money. Don’t you want people who challenge you? And so some of this was just natural and some of it was organic, but I would watch these people who would surround themselves with people who would tell them everything was great — and everything wasn’t great. Everything wasn’t right in the world. And so I learned early on: why wouldn’t you surround yourself with people who are brighter than you, smarter than you, have more experience, and can challenge you? And along the way, they’re educating you. So to me, it seemed very natural to hire people who were better and smarter and could challenge you — and in a respectful way, being part of a team.

And so by the time I got to a point in my career where I could have influence, then I wanted to surround myself with people who were brighter and smarter and would challenge me in a respectful way in a team environment. And that became, like, a signature — like it was something, like, earth-shattering that you would actually hire people who are brighter and smarter and challenge you.

Natalie
I’m struck by the way that you talk about yourself as if this is obvious, because it was obvious to you. But it’s so wild to me how limited people’s vision can be of themselves.

Julia
It’s funny you say that. When you asked me about examples, I thought about diversity. I mean, I was thinking about diversity long before it was a thing and we had a word and it was D, E, and I, and the like. I’m like, “Why wouldn’t we hire people of colour? Why wouldn’t we hire men and women? Why wouldn’t we hire people from different walks of life? Why wouldn’t you want to make this the best tapestry and the most dynamic group of people you could?” As long as there were certain things, no matter who you hired could do — play in a team environment, which I feel strongly about. Be respectful, learn from others, put your best foot forward, be committed. By the time I got to a point where I could really make a difference and I could hire and fire and whatever, I remember saying to my head of human resources, “Listen, I can teach you the business, but integrity, commitment, teamwork… I mean, be the best you can be, be respectful. Those are tough things to teach.”

Natalie
Yeah — but you obviously were modelling it, so that’s the big win.

Julia
Someone said to me, “Well, you must have had role models.” I said, “I never worked for a woman. I never had a woman boss — ever.” Ever. So by the time I was getting to a point in my career where it was really mattering, people would say to me, “Well, you must have learned this somewhere.” And then I would say, “Well, actually, I learned from people’s mistakes,” because that was all I had to sort of shadow. And there was sort of this… people look like the RCA dog — you know, that weird look. Like, “What?” And I would say that is really what it was — it was learning from watching people’s mistakes.

Natalie
That makes a lot of sense to me. I think that people are going to be really interested in this one very specific detail about what happened at a certain point. You got to a space of kind of rising through the ranks through your company, and then something happened.

Julia
Let me just rewind the tape really quick. I had started my career in marketing and I had been in marketing for about 14 years on the restaurant business side. Loved it, enjoyed my time. Really felt like I had made a significant contribution to the companies I worked for. But I got to a point where if I had to do one more strap plan and one more advertising commercial… you know, I’d sort of been there, done that. But it was really a great learning ground.

And I had gone to, at the time, the CEO of the company and said, “Listen, you can put me in anywhere, coach. I’ll go anywhere in the country — doesn’t really matter. I just want to run some operations. I really want P&L experience.” And in my head, I was thinking, “No one’s ever going to make me CEO if I don’t have P&L experience.” And even back then, most people looked at somebody like me in marketing and said, “You spend the money, you don’t make the money.” And so I said, “Ok, you know, two can play this game. I’ll go into operations.”

And so I volunteered for any of the divisions — this was a large company. Any of the divisions — I just wanted to go into operations. And he said, “No, you just make too much money for us as the chief marketing officer for this division.” I said, “No, no, you don’t understand. I’ll do anything. I’ll start at the bottom. I really don’t care.” And he said no. And I said, “Well, I just want to be clear with you, in the spirit of being open and communicative. I will probably have to leave because I really want to go into operations.”

And I think he thought to himself (because many years later I ran into him at an airport and he actually said this) — he said, “Probably one of my bigger mistakes, not letting you go on the operating side. And frankly, Julia, I just didn’t think anybody would hire you. You had all this marketing experience.” And I said, “Yeah, but if you successfully ran a whole marketing team, what would make you think you can’t successfully run an operating team?” And he said, “No, no, no. I thought of marketing people as marketing people and operations people…”

Anyway, long story short, that’s when I took the job at Taco Bell and started as an assistant restaurant general manager. Now I was on a fast track program, so in fairness there were people at the corporation who knew, but I started as assistant restaurant general manager and I worked my way up. And I loved it. Really enjoyed it and kept getting promoted and kept being successful and was surrounded with great smart people and the team just got bigger and bigger and more successful.

About that time, it was probably three quarters of the way into my time there. You know, we spun off of PepsiCo. So when I joined, we were part of PepsiCo, and about three quarters of the way in, we spun off to become Yum! And Yum! was KFC and Pizza Hut and Taco Bell — eventually some other chains, but very successful. It had a fair amount of debt it had to pay off, but obviously it had gone on to be very successful. And I probably would have stayed — I really liked the company, I really liked the team. Loved what I was doing, loved operations.

And my boss, who for a short period of time, he was the CEO. And when we spun off, it was common knowledge that he was going to be the head of the new business, the head of the new company which eventually became Yum! And so he called all of us (I remember this like it was yesterday) into a hotel room for a very early meeting. And I was kind of like, “Ok,” — you know, here it comes. He’s going to take the big job. And he had said, you know, “You’re obviously next in line.” So I was so excited. And it was the shortest meeting I’ve ever been in. It took about four minutes. And he said, you know, “They did not make me CEO and I’m leaving.”

And I think there was a real learning because I just assumed: well, surely the rest of the organization will see what he sees and what I believe in my heart. And that didn’t work that way. You know, you’re in a large corporation, sometimes your benefactor goes away and you’re not viewed the same way. And I stayed for a good two years after that, but I really just didn’t think they’d ever make a woman CEO, and they have not, so I decided it was best to start looking.

So along came an executive recruiter who said, “There is an opening to run Applebee’s,” which was a public company, and it was the largest casual dining chain in the United States, and here’s the opportunity of a lifetime for you to really demonstrate what you’re capable of. So you’re taking your marketing background, your operating background, your general managementship background, and you’re going to run it. So I went on several interviews and towards the end, the chairman and the CEO at the time were separate and they said, “Look, you come in as president, you build the team you need to build, you turn around this business which hadn’t had any comparable growth in some time, you build yourself a new team, you fix the market.” You know, here’s a very specific, discrete group of things we want you to do to really demonstrate capability, but more importantly, get us back on the right track, get sales-positive, get the stock going in the right place, and we’ll make you CEO.

I mean, I guess some people could argue there was naïveté — I just assumed your word is your word. So I took the job and began to put together one of the best teams I ever worked with in my entire career — because, you know, it was kind of like: do whatever you need to do. So I pulled people from all over the country and all walks of life and the best R&D, the best marketing, the best operations, the best supply chain. It was like, “Ok, let’s go make this…”

Natalie
Amazing.

Julia
Yeah. And it was really a great time, and we were very successful. In a pretty short period of time, we were able to improve operations. At the same time, we improved the advertising. At the same time, we improved the media buy — we took a national buy. At the same time, we created this incredible strength in the brand, and it was on all cylinders. So about… I don’t even think it was three years in, by this time, the chair and CEO was one person. The chair had retired, and so the CEO became the chair and the CEO. And I went in with my pad of paper, and I had my little chart that showed the trajectory of what we were doing.

Natalie
Growth.

Julia
And I was really proud of the team — and I’m still in touch with most of them. It was an amazing time, and the franchise community was behind us and there was just this incredible synergy. And there was like a little da-da moment as I was presenting everything and I said, “So, you know, I feel like it’s time for me to become CEO.” And he said, “No.” And I thought, “Well, he meant no today.” And I said, “Well, of course, I’m not suggesting today, but I’m suggesting… you know, we’ve done all of this work. I couldn’t be more proud. Is there something you want me to demonstrate? Is there something more you or the board want me to do?” And he said, “No, not ever.”

Natalie
Ok.

Julia
And so I remember being somewhat stunned and saying, “Can you tell me why?” And he said, “I don’t need a reason why.” And I come from the school (and I think I was taught this way as a child) if you really are going to say something you might regret later, just walk away. Give it a day. So I said, “You know what, I think I’m going to go home early today and I’ll be back.” And so I think I ended the conversation abruptly and said, “I need to think about what you just said.” And so I came back the next day and said, “I really thought about it. And I think I’ve got all this responsibility and accountability, but not the title, and I just don’t think that’s going to work. So I’m going to go ahead and leave and say goodbye and thank you for the time — but not what I signed up for.” And he said, “Well, you can’t leave. If you leave, the stock will tank.” And I always tell that story like, “Are you listening to yourself?”

Natalie
Wild.

Julia
So anyway, we reached an agreement that I would stay for a period of time, and eventually left. Went on several different interviews and literally on 9/11, I was stuck in a Marriott Courtyard in California. I was obviously living in Kansas City at the time, and I was stuck in a Marriott Courtyard, and one of the companies I had been interviewing for was IHOP. And the chairman of the board called me and he said, “Are you safe?” And I’m like, “Who is this?” And he said, “It’s the chairman of the board of IHOP. We’re calling all the family members.” Which kind of touched me, and I said, “Yes, sir, I’m safe.” He said, “Where are you?” I said, “Well, I’m in a Marriott Courtyard in Calabasas, California.” He said, “Well, there’s only one company in Calabasas and you shouldn’t take that job. You should work for us.” And I said, “Well, I actually don’t have an offer letter yet, sir, but, you know…” — we were still on a ‘sir’ basis. And he said, “Well, you come back. You make it home safe. I just wanted to call anybody that we knew that was traveling and make sure.” You know, because they had stopped planes and there was all that. People were stuck. Anyway, so I eventually got back to Kansas City and the rest, as they say, is history, And so I took the job, where I had it in writing that I would be president for 60, 90 days so I could get my bearings before the street sort of, you know, wanted my head and then became CEO.

Natalie
Wow.

Julia
And the playbook was similar to Applebee’s — there were some things that were done differently. I mean, when I say similar, it wasn’t, you know, point for point, but there were some things where IHOP was further along than Applebee’s and vice versa. But at any rate, put the strategy together, built a team — great team. Some of the team that was already there was stupendous, but built a team, brought a few people with me, and it took us a little while longer, but we finally declared success.

I rented out the Ritz in Maui, and we took the entire franchise community and family and everybody — it was about 2,000 of us. We all went to Maui and celebrated going from number seventh or eighth in the category to number one, turning the business around, incredible success. Not just for the franchisees and doubling sales, but just for the first time those guys walked with a swagger and they realized they had this great brand — it just needed to be re-energized.

Anyway, long story short, when you’re that successful that quickly and you’ve turned the business model and you’re printing money, you become a target because you have so much cash on the balance sheet. So I went to the board and said, “Listen,” you know, “We need to be careful here. We have really literally gone from negative cash flow to just all of this money sitting on the balance sheet. My strong suggestion would be that we purchase something as an acquisition and we can tie them together. It can’t be exactly in the category, but with all the strength of our brand and the strength of an incredible team, we can sort of take something else on. And we went looking, and I was very clear to the street what that would look like, because IHOP was public, and we were very clear, and I remember an investor saying, “Well, that’s kind of like a needle in the haystack,” and I’m like, “Exactly,” but we went looking.

And about the same time… back in those days, you read the Wall Street Journal. It came to your office, and you read it cover to cover. I’m reading the front page of the Wall Street Journal, and there is this article on the cover of Wall Street Journal talking about Applebee’s looking at strategic alternatives up to including the sale, because it had floundered after I’d left. So I’m making a very long story short.

Natalie
I love it. Bring it.

Julia
I called the banker and said, “You know, maybe the chairman and CEO doesn’t want to meet with me, but love to start a dialogue. Don’t know whether it makes sense.” But I knew the company so well — you know, I knew what it needed, and I knew what was possible. And I knew we had the wherewithal to do so. And some of the team was still there. And anyway, I went back to the board and said, “Look, I would never do this without your support. And frankly, you know, you don’t fall in love. You see if it’s meant to be — it may not be meant to be. But with anything, you’re going to have to do due diligence and I’ll be back in touch.”

And we were looking at several things at the time. And I saw some of the positives and I had asked some of the team members to be part of what we would call, like, a core due diligence team. And one of the guys was our supply chain person at IHOP. And we were going around the room and we were getting updates from everybody about, “Ok, here’s what I saw in HR. Here’s what I saw in insurance.” So they were all going around the table sort of giving us an update on what they had seen. And the supply chain guy says, “Well, interesting factoid, 75% of the products that we buy at IHOP is from the same manufacturer as Applebee’s.” I’m like, “What did you say?” So it never dawned on me.

And that’s the day I said, “You know what? Do you have any idea how much money we could save all the Applebee’s franchisees and the IHOP franchisees by putting together a purchasing co-op? Oh my gosh.” So I brought in people that I had worked with in the past who had expertise in this — think of them as consultants with a very specific supply chain hat on. And they did the analysis and they said, “Easily worth 300 basis points in the middle of the panel,” I said, “What did you say?” And that became one of the foundation items — that you aren’t just purchasing something. So one plus one is going to equal five — you’re going to bring these two things together.

So we bought Applebee’s and I think it makes for a salacious comment, but that’s about it. Because the truth of the matter is you don’t borrow $2.5 billion for revenge, but there was the phone call I made to the chair and CEO saying, “You know, we don’t need two of us, so I have to let you go.” And he said, “I was waiting for the call,” and I never spoke to him again. And, you know, you hear the rumor that somehow, why he, you know, whatever… I never knew. He never explained it, he never said — I mean, I could guess. But at any rate, he left and it became Dine Global Brands and it was an incredible run.

So when we took over, it was right before the financial crisis. And so when the financial crisis struck, you know, we had a fair amount of debt load for purchasing Applebee’s on the balance sheet. And it was funny, because many of the equity holders on this now combined new entity were sort of like, “Oh my gosh, what’s going to happen?” I’m like, “We’re fine, it’s just going to take a little while.” So the stock took this incredible hit. And when we announced the acquisition of Applebee’s, it rose to about… I think we got it to where Applebee’s was, and then we just took off. So we got to maybe, I don’t know, $60, $70 a share. I mean, it was an incredible run. Paid off a ton of debt and life was good. And then the financial crisis, and it went to $5.55 because people were so nervous. You know, and this is where you have a lot of positives to say — you know, the board was always behind me. We never had any ringing of the hands or there would be issue, But through hard work and putting the two together and the team that I mentioned earlier and some of the great strategies (including, as I said, this supply chain strategy, which really was amazing), it took us probably five years after the financial crisis, maybe — maybe four years, and we took the stock to about $120 a share.

Natalie
Wow.

Julia
Made a lot of money for a lot of people, and the brands just took off. So it’s a great story in that I think people hear the salacious part about the revenge, but it’s really to say confidence and knowing what I knew and knowing that I was surrounded by this great team and knowing what we had done before and doing it again in a slightly different way, I knew what was possible, and I knew the synergies were there for a family dining chain and a casual dining chain. And the rest, as they say, is history. Great story.

Natalie
Yeah.

Julia
So if you take all that together, between IHOP and Applebee’s, I was part of those two great brands for over 20 years. So it was a great run.

Rebecca
Sometimes people ask us if we make money doing this podcast. The answer is we don’t. In fact, every hour we spend on Reframables is time not spent at a paying gig. And the steps to making a podcast are actually many. Finding the guests, booking the guests, reading the books, planning the questions, editing the interview, uploading it into the podcast world, making the artwork. So if you value this podcast, please consider supporting it with a financial contribution. Memberships start at $6 a month on Patreon and include a monthly extra where we record our five things in a week. In this world we have to support what we love, and with that support an energy comes back to us — so thanks for going to patreon.com/reframables and becoming a supporter. It doesn’t really make a lot of sense to be making a podcast, but here we are, three years later, still doing it with your help. So go to patreon.com/reframables — now, on to the show.

Natalie
Julia, I don’t know if you hear yourself with this one little thing that all of these headlines that I’ve read about you frame the story about you — like, it’s all about the waitress who ended up buying out the company that started her. But the way you’ve told this whole story is as a ‘we.’

Julia
Yeah — well, that’s just not who I am. It wasn’t about me. It was about this incredible team, most of which I’m still in touch with and are good friends today. And what did we all have in common? Commitment, belief in the plan, belief in each other, strong team. And you really couldn’t work for me unless you believed in a win-win. How do I help the company? How do I help the franchisees? We need each other. And, you know, somebody said to me, “Well, don’t you think your personality just lends itself to being in the franchise business?” (Which I had always been in.) The one thing I would say is no — maybe I grew up where I was somewhat of an ombudsman. But I think it had more to do with, “I want you to win.” I mean, we want to work together to create this… one plus one equals much more than two. And so maybe that was a part of my personality that I never realized.

But really, if you think about it, from the time I graduated from college, all I ever did was work in franchise businesses — in the restaurant space, but always in franchise businesses. And I think part of that is I had a little bit of that entrepreneurial spirit, and I spent years, if you think about it, helping entrepreneurs be better at what they did. And so by the time I got to be CEO, I was like, “Well, of course — this is what we do.” You know, when you would get on a plane and somebody would sit next to you and say, “What do you do?” I’m like, “I help franchisees make money. I help them grow their businesses.”

So all those years later, when I ended up becoming an entrepreneur myself, people were like, “Oh my gosh, what a departure that you go from being this public CEO, this huge company to starting this little business.” And I’m like, “No, actually, I don’t think of it that way. I think of it as kind of a natural part of the journey.” So it’s funny you say that, because I think there is this natural affinity to somehow want to attach — but that isn’t really the way it works. You know, you really are part of a big team.

The one thing I would say, and somebody’s often said, “Well, what do you think really that has to do with?” I’m a communications major. My degree is not in advanced accounting or finance or strategy — it’s in communications. And I think because it was drummed into me — take a lot of information and simplify it. Do a headline, help people understand, create a vision. My whole background was in communicating. So if you’re a really good communicator, I think that’s part of what makes a successful CEO — somebody who can talk up, down, sideways, all the way around. So if you think about all the constituencies I had, your job is to communicate effectively to all the constituents. 265,000 employees. 455 franchisees. All of the equity holders. The board of directors. 2 million customers a day walking through the door. What do all those people have in common? They want a clear picture.

Natalie
The way that you have framed resilience in this whole storying of your career, I’m hearing this question that I had planned to ask you, which was: is resilience a one-time hurdle for you or an everyday act? And I’m hearing it’s an everyday act because it involves, like, a whole community. When your community is that big, when you’ve got, like, 450 smaller sort of communities to model for, it’s going to be an everyday act for each of them. So how do you stay energized?

Julia
That’s a great question. First of all, when you talked about that the other day, I put some reflection into it. I think resiliency is in my wood. I just think it’s part of who I am. I never give up. Tenacity is my middle name. I just don’t ever give up. I’ll find a different way. I’ll do it a different way. You know, obviously it’s got to be with integrity and respect, but I’m not going to give up.

You said something early on today about: do you model that behaviour? Is that leadership shadow important? So if you think about it and you’re a leader and you’re modelling resiliency every day, eventually the people who come in contact with you, it kind of rubs off — like, “She’s not giving up. I sure as heck am not giving up.” And so I think that notion of: dig inside, and it isn’t about you, it’s about how do we do the greater good, right? For the brand, for the company, for the people. It becomes the greater good. Much like you and I spoke at the beginning of this call about the community. This is a community here. They’ve been under siege. This is a terrible thing that’s happened. So how do you come together?

If you think about it, whether it’s a big company, a small company, public, private, it’s the same basic principle, right? You want to do the right thing for the company and for all that are part of it. How do you get a win-win, where it’s not just about the company, it’s also about the people who work at that company? And I think that starts with a culture that makes sense for everyone and I learned early on in my career, starts at the top, the CEO creates a culture, the CEO is ultimately accountable. My performance appraisal with the board every year was the same thing: “Let’s start with what is Julia doing to make sure it’s a healthy, supportive culture? Let’s start there and then let’s work our way around.”

And so we didn’t say resiliency was at the top of the list, it just became a how-to. Part of the reason you could get a successful culture was that you have resiliency — that you would figure out a way, right? Maybe you didn’t know it right away, but you would figure out a way. And if there was a roadblock, how do you fix that roadblock? And I think that just became part of my journey. And by the time I got to a role in leadership, that’s just part of your toolkit — is this resiliency. “That didn’t work, let’s try it a different way.”

And somewhere along the line, I did learn the words “fail quickly.” So if you make a mistake (and you do, you never have complete information as a public CEO or private CEO — you have what you have), ok, you have to move forward. How do we get successful? Well, let’s try this. And I get some consensus — not all the time, but we move forward. And if it wasn’t successful, “Ok, what are we going to do differently?” I mean, some of it seems so obvious to me — like, “Ok, that’s not working. So let’s not beat ourselves to death. Let’s move on and figure out a new and different way.”

But resiliency is every day. And I think that carryover from learning it every day and working in that environment every day served me well in an entrepreneurial environment where you really are learning and growing every day. But resiliency becomes, again, part of the everyday walkabout because you’re trying to build this company from scratch. So yes, I do think resiliency was an everyday marker, and it became part of what you would get up and do.

You know, and you also said something earlier about leadership shadow. You know, you’re not the CEO 24/7 — you go to the grocery store like anybody else. But I think you have an awareness that from the moment you walk in that office and all those people are watching you — you know, that mind shift of, “It’s a new day. Good morning. How are you today?” That notion of saying hello and communicating. People are watching, and they want to be reassured by the leader. They don’t want to live in fear. If the leader is overwhelmed, the team is overwhelmed. If the leader is like, “We can do this,” suddenly they’re… So I think the organization echoes whatever they see in the leader.

And occasionally, not often, you know, there would be somebody who worked for me who either couldn’t keep up or didn’t want to play or didn’t want to be a team player. And, you know, then you have to make a change. But I think by and large, if you communicate effectively up front, “This is the way it’s going to be. This is the vision. You want to be a part of that?” Most people will adapt pretty quickly.

Natalie
Which is inspiring about people. That’s actually kind of nice to know, that people want to be learners, that people want to participate in, like, a positive culture. Because I think the online world right now suggests other things.

Julia
Absolutely. I had somebody early on say, “You know, you’re really tough on standards.” Gosh, thank you. I mean, what a terrible thing to be known for — I’m a CEO that’s tough on standards. There was a little bit of, “Ok, yes, I’m tough on standards.” We have 5,000 restaurants — we have to have tough standards if we’re going to run them well. I mean, some of this was a little bit, “Oh, ok, sure.” You know, it’s the story about the food server who didn’t want to serve any tables except for hers. And I said, “So when you go look for your next job, be sure and tell someone that the reason you left is because we told you from time to time you’d have to serve other tables and be a team member.”

Natalie
Right. I’m kind of glad I wasn’t there for that moment because I’m trying to imagine what they said.

Julia
I remember this story like yesterday. I was at an Applebee’s and there was this horrible spill. I don’t even know what it was — I don’t know if it was water or Coke or what. But it was on the floor — it was all over the floor. And I grabbed a buster and I said, “Hey, I’m so sorry. Would you do me a huge favour? Grab a mop. That’s a really large spill.” And I’ll never forget — he was a young, young man and he said, “Well, what would be my motivation?” And you know, everybody that I was standing around in this circle was like, “Uh-oh.” And I said, “No, it’s a fair question. Let me be clear.” And I explained: somebody’s tripping and falling. It could be him. There could be an injury. It could be worse — it could be, you know, a guest. You know, it was all about an explanation — he deserved an explanation. And he went and cleaned up and probably still, you know, is telling that story today from his perspective. You know, there’s nothing wrong with… if you need an explanation or if you need context, I’d much rather you know safety is important. Again, what’s the culture?

Natalie
Yeah, is it a culture where people can feel safe to ask questions? Is it a culture where people can feel like the conversation that they might be having with a superior, quote-unquote, is still civilized and engaged? I mean, obviously you demonstrated that.

Julia
Absolutely, and to this day, I would tell you I make a bad date going to a restaurant because I can tell in about… less than four minutes, I can tell if it’s well run. I can tell who runs it. I can tell: does everyone want to work there? How does it run? Is there a culture? To this day, I can tell in less than five minutes.

Natalie
Here’s my final question for you, because you could have just stopped. You hit a point where you were like, “Ok, I’ve done all the things on this to-do list, and I’ve made my way through all the different positions.” Like, you certainly can’t say that you haven’t been challenged. But in this kind of focus on resilience, I think it’s interesting to end us with a question on rest — because your version of rest is to start a new company, but it’s a wellness company. Tell us a little bit about Alurx, but also about the ‘why?’ for you with it.

Julia
So 42 years in the restaurant business, the last 20 is running this public entity — first as Applebee’s, then as IHOP, then combined. And it was time for a change, and I did spend about a year doing a lot of soul searching. And during that time, actually, people started calling me, saying, “Hey, would you assess this business? Do you think I should buy this? Is this too much?” — whatever. And I found out that I’m really good at consulting and I don’t like it. So, you know, by and large, I’ve got to run something. I love helping people and I love doing it, but it wouldn’t be my primary. I’ve got to run something.

So I started doing some research and informational interviews, which is what I’ve always done when I don’t understand something — I just start asking questions. I’ve never had anybody say to me, “Absolutely not. I’m not going to spend an ounce of time with you. I wouldn’t want to help you. I wouldn’t want to tell you what I know.” I’ve never had anybody do that. If you go in with the right, you know, “When it’s convenient for you, I’d love for you to share.”

And so I’d always grown up in this, you know, “You take care of yourself, you work out every day, you eat well.” I’d grown up in that environment and then raised my own family to be that way, but clearly saw that in many people it wasn’t that way. And so I thought, “Ok, how could I impact and influence in a significantly different way?” Thus was born Alurx, and thus the notion of, “How could we create something that people could use every day that would help them in this wellness journey” And thus the app was born and this notion of, “I’m going to help you every day on your wellness journey with daily activities.” Right? Doesn’t take a long time. The app’s going to prompt you if you aren’t there every day and remind you to come in.

And so when we first started, I collected, I don’t know, I went around the country interviewing doctors, experts, and people were writing down literally different activities for 30 days at a crack, but that became almost unwieldy because that’s a lot of work for a lot of doctors trying to create personalized routines for you personally — like, “Tell me what’s wrong, I’m going to start working with you.” And so thus we’re moving to the AI version of our app where it’s generative AI. So it’s closed — think of it like closed circuit. It’s very specific. We only are pulling from certain doctors and experts, but it’s this notion of really being able to help. And I think when I get an email and somebody says, you know, “You changed my life, this daily routine has really changed my life. I’m living longer, I’m healthier.” That’s what really matters to me. And we started out with sleep and nutrition and stress management. Now we’re running the gamut as we finalize our funding and take this app to a whole nother level.

So it’s been fun, but it’s also been just so interesting, the learnings on every aspect of it. And again, small team, but having fun and building a culture of, you know, honesty and transparency and doing the best that we know how and helping people and listening to their concerns. How do we make it easily accessible? How do I learn more about the tech side? So I am fully in health tech and learning how to make this better for all, and I cannot tell you the number of people who’ve now started emailing me saying, “You changed my life.” The 42-year-old woman who just had a baby and is trying to balance all of it and she said, you know, “Just the daily routine, it’s like you’re my little wellness buddy.”

You know, somebody asked me the other day, “What will you be doing, you know, 15 years from now?” And I’ll somehow be involved 15 years from now. Do I keep one, like, hand still involved in the restaurant business? Yes, I have a few people I work with to help them, because it comes easy to me and it’s good sometimes to just, you know, be able to see the big picture. But this is a mission for me.

Natalie
Talk about lifelong learning. I love it. I made a big change in terms of my career. I had been in one arena for 20 years, and then I made a shift. And like you, I keep myself kind of in both, because I think that there’s something healthy in that. I’m hearing that from you, and that’s really helpful mentoring, actually.

Julia
It’s funny you say that, because I still do mentor. I don’t do as much as I used to, but I still mentor. I take on one or two clients at a time — sometimes they’re entrepreneurs, sometimes they’re executives. It has been fascinating. I’m actually meeting a mentoree tomorrow night. She’s like, “Ok, I’m going to take this risk. I’m going to start my own company,” and I’m like, “You’ve got this — I mean, in spades.” And I’m in awe of her. But I think, you know, I didn’t have me 20, 30 years ago. But I think the point is if you can live the self you want to be, and live that to its fullest, to your point earlier, then you can be proud of whoever and whatever you are at any stage of that journey, because you are true to yourself and what you want to be.