Natalie
And Nat — two very different sisters who come together each week to reframe problems big and small with you, our dear Reframables.

Rebecca
And why do we call you such a term of endearment?

Natalie
Because we are all in the process of reframing and being reframed.

Rebecca
But first off, we’ve got some love to show. So we’ve made a friend in this podcasting world of ours, and her name is Pam Uzzell. Her podcast is called Art Heals All Wounds, and we’ll be playing her trailer at the end of this episode to give you a taste of what she’s all about. Each week, she interviews an artist and talks about their work. She believes that as creative thinkers, artists present us with some of the most compelling visions of ways that our world could work better for everyone — and that is a vision Reframables can definitely get behind, so please check her out.

Natalie
And now we get to do something that we love doing on this show — and every once in a while, the opportunity arises for us to reframe something that someone has sent us. So our very dear friend Ann has sent us a problem to reframe. So we’re just going to jump right in here, listen to what she has us tasked to consider, and then we’ll see what we can do with it.

Ann
So my reframable is based on a regret. It’s not a huge regret, but it’s just something that tickled my brain. It just sits there, and every once in a while it comes to the surface, and it bugs me, and I’m trying to get past it, and I don’t know if I can. So I’m coming to you to seek some reframable clarification or guidance on this. Back in 2018 (June 2018, actually), I was in a used bookstore buying a book for my son, and the deal with the owner when I got to the cash was you buy one book, you take four additional books. For the cost of the one book, clear out his inventory. So no problem — went through the bookstore really quickly, found a few more books, and one of them that caught my eye was Anthony Bourdain’s memoir. I think it’s like Kitchen Confidential or something, and I grabbed it. The day before, sadly, Anthony Bourdain had passed away, and I thought, “Oh, this is interesting timing. This has come into my hands, and I’m going to grab it.” I looked through the book and before I got the cash, noticed that it had been signed by Anthony Bourdain himself, and I was like, “Oh my goodness.” And I was there with a friend, and she’s like, “Oh my gosh, don’t say anything, just grab it.” So, you know, take it up to the cash, pay quickly, and then we scurry out of the bookstore so excited.

Get home, and my dad is visiting with his partner. I was telling them the story, and she sort of just said, “Oh my goodness, that’s great.” Her son had really looked up to Anthony Bourdain and I thought to myself, “This book came into my life for a reason, I’m going to pass this book on to her son.” I don’t have a very close relationship — this is two adults that got together in life, so it’s not like a stepchildren, stepsister / brother situation. I’d met him a few times in the ten years our parents have been together. It’s just, you know, that’s how that relationship works. So I’m going to pass that on to him and that will be, you know, a generous offering to him.

As soon as I did it, I regretted it. I have a stepfather who I have a very close relationship with (my mother’s husband) who is a huge cook, huge Anthony Bourdain fan. And I remember my sister kind of looking at me like, “What? Why did you give that away?” You know, our stepfather loves Anthony Bourdain. That would have been an obvious one. We don’t really know our father’s partner’s son that well. I know, and I knew right away, like, “What have I done?” But of course I couldn’t take it back. And this is five years ago now and it still sits in the pit of my stomach, in my brain, as I said, that I want to get this book back and I want to give it to the rightful owner who is my stepfather, who is a huge cook. Who cooked a huge feast for our wedding. You know, he’s just a huge person in my life and I know this would mean a lot to him, but I don’t know how to do this. I don’t know how to ask for this book back. And it’s really awkward.

I’m not sure what to do. I don’t know if I just leave it. I’ve given it away and it’s in a good home. Maybe it’s not even there anymore — I mean, I never got any kind of acknowledgement like, “Hey, thanks for the book.” So I don’t even know if he has it, I don’t know if he appreciates it. I don’t know if it sits on a bookshelf, I don’t know if it sits in his kitchen. I don’t know if it is in another used bookstore or in one of those little street library boxes for all I know. I don’t know, and I don’t know how I feel about that, but I also want to get it back. So can I get it back? Should I just leave this? It’s in the right hands? Anyway, something I’m wrestling with, something that’s tickling the brain. What was that term you used about a year ago? Something like a wasp’s nest or a hornet’s nest happening in my brain. Anyway, some clarification — reframe it. Anything you can do with that story, that little narrative would be really helpful, I think. I’ve blathered on a long time. But anyway, that’s it. Thanks.

Natalie
So what do you think, Bec? I think Ann’s intention was to be generous. And I think generosity is key to how I hear this story, and where I’m going to go with what I think the end result can be. But just do you have any sort of opening thoughts? Like, do you hear this as the ultimate quandary in some ways — giving a gift and then taking it back?

Rebecca
Yeah. I think it’s a hard one. I think it’s hard when… what does she say? It’s tickling her brain?

Natalie
Yeah, that’s exactly how she framed it.

Rebecca
Yeah, I could see that would niggle at me, too. When you’ve done something, you had this impromptu feeling of generosity, you wanted to deepen a relationship through something, and then it doesn’t quite land. And so you think, “Ok, well I want to take that back now and try it again in the place that I know it will land.” I feel like I can relate. I don’t have a specific thing, but I know that feeling. I know I’ve had it in my life, where I tried something. So I guess I applaud her, first off, for trying something.

Natalie
Yeah, but you’re right, it is so totally relatable. For me, I can think of, like, a couple very specific incidents, and they were both weddings. So I can definitively remember giving a gift at two different weddings, and not getting any response back. And I remember with my wedding to Clifford, staying up really late reading all of the wedding cards because I wanted desperately not to end up in that situation where I could miss somebody on the other end of it, because I know how that feels. So that, to me, feels a little bit like what’s happening here — is there’s sort of like the giving of something, but wanting to be acknowledged in the gift giving.

Rebecca
Mm-hmm. Although in the wedding, you would never take it back. It’s just kind of, “Ugh, grr, it wasn’t acknowledged,” — but I mean, it would never cross your mind to take it back.

Natalie
I guess I want to.

Rebecca
Whereas I think in Ann’s problem, it’s almost a step that’s more troubling because maybe it seems like one could take it back.

Natalie
Yeah, because it was a gift given that wasn’t occasion-based. Ok, well, this is how I’m reframing it…

Rebecca
But what was your other example?

Natalie
It was two weddings. Two!

Rebecca
Oh, two? Oh. Two times it happened to you.

Natalie
Two times this has happened, and I’m like, “What the f?” I don’t have tons of money to be giving gifts, so at least give me a thank you. I know, this is just where I’m at. Ok, so my reframing of Ann’s gift giving quandary — because I personally think she can ask for it back. I really do, because I have reframed this experience as being like a library. So I feel like she loaned out this book in the spirit of, “Here, this could be good for you for this time,” and then now can say, “Hey, I have somebody else that I know would really benefit from some time with that book I gave you. Could I pass it on? Could we pay it forward and pass it on?” Because then there would be certainly some sort of awareness of whatever happened to it. Because as she said, it could really just be gone, but then she’d know, right? And I think that for me, the library book element of it makes sense because that happens in academia all the time. People are constantly lending books, but then needing them again to give on to some new grad student. So that the giving and receiving of books happens all the time in that world, so that doesn’t feel quite so beyond the pale to me. So that’s my reframing here — is seeing it as a library loan that you then can say, “I’m not asking for it back so I can store it in my own personal library, but so I can pass it on to the next person who needs to borrow the book.”

Rebecca
That is definitely a cool reframe, but it could be very awkward. She’s saying, the gift I gave to you, can we now go back, rewind, and can we say it was a library loan? Is that what you’re saying? Which I like.

Natalie
I guess I am saying that, because first of all, I wasn’t there when it was given — nobody was, because she didn’t actually get to give it to the final receiver. There was an intermediary.

Rebecca
Through someone, yeah.

Natalie
Right? So because of that intermediary, I feel like that offers a bit of a buffer or a bridge.

Rebecca
Because she could go and say, “Oh, this is how I meant for it to be given.”

Natalie
Yeah, I think that that has been proffered to her as an opportunity.

Rebecca
Right. That probably does give her that freedom. I mean, I think it definitely could be a little awkward if the book is, you know, no longer with… Have you had that happen, though, where somebody wants something back from you and you don’t have it anymore? I feel like you’ve had that with kids’ clothing.

Natalie
Yes, you’re right. I have.

Rebecca
And then when you don’t have it, it can be really awkward. And could it do damage? I mean, I think that’s what she’s also playing with, right? “Could this do damage if I asked for it back?” She knows there’s something at stake, otherwise she’d just ask for it back, and it would be simple.

Natalie
Right. And we also know Ann to be a very thoughtful person, so for sure something’s at stake when one is aware of other people’s emotions. That’s a very good example. I’d forgotten about that one with the kids’ clothing. And, you know, I would say that that experience probably taught me something. When someone gave something to me, this person didn’t preface that gift with, “I may need this back.” So I had paid it forward and given that kids’ clothing on to somebody else. And also the person had asked it of me over text. So I remembered thinking later that that got funny because of the way that the request came through — like that it was done over text as opposed to a phone call where I could have explained myself better and then actually figured out, “Well, maybe I could go and find this for you.” But also it just could have been a more relational interaction, I think.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Natalie
Had this sort of technology thing not kind of cut us off with text. So I guess I would say, if we’re going to go down the road of my path here of my suggested reframe for Ann, I would say it’s got to be over a phone call instead of a text.

Rebecca
Right. Except didn’t that make you feel like you were special to that person? Like, “I was thinking of you, that you would need these clothes, and now I want them back.” So didn’t it make you feel a little bit less special for a second? So what I want to ask Ann to consider, if she asks for the book back in your cool way of saying that’s a library (which I think is a cool idea), would it make the other person feel, “Oh, I was special, and Ann thought of me and had this book particularly in mind for me. Is she now calling me not special?” I don’t know — that’s taking it maybe too far. So it could be like, “Well, I was the apple of their eye for a second, and now I’ve fallen off their radar and I’m…”

Natalie
I don’t know. I hear what you’re saying, because I mean, I think it’s important to weigh something from all sides and that’s why Ann gave this to us.

Rebecca
That’s what we’re here for.

Natalie
Exactly. That’s what she knew we would do, so we’re doing it. But I think, maybe because we have talked on this show about the idea of gift as like, we give and then we can’t know how it’s received. So there’s that side of this. But there’s also the relational interaction between the two — the gift giver and the gift receiver. And there was no relationship moment between giver and receiver in this, because of there having been that intermediary person for Ann. So in some ways, a relational interaction could perhaps be created just even with the conversation.

Rebecca
Right, that’s true. That’s interesting. We’re sort of just able to see this from Ann’s perspective. Ann didn’t get anything from that moment. We don’t know what the other person got out of that moment. We’re just trying to have your back, Ann.

Natalie
Yeah, and we do. We fully have your back, Ann.

Rebecca
Yeah. It’s also like, I guess in our lives, what do we need? I guess if we’re prioritizing what we need in a moment, versus that other person’s feelings. So maybe there’s also that. This is an important thing that she needs back. She’s willing to risk — maybe the risk is like 1% that it’s going to be an issue, so it’s very small, but is she going to take that risk for what she needs for herself? Do you think there’s some of that? Who needs to be taken care of — the other person or her?

Natalie
I love that question, because maybe the answer truly is her, and that this is then a worthwhile moment to ask for something because, you know, how often do women end up not putting themselves first for risk of causing potential awkwardness that might even just be momentary or not at all?

Rebecca
Yeah. And she could close that loop in her life — that little tickle that’s… I mean, ok, Ann, what space is this tickle taking up? Is it taking away from other potential creativity? Closing loops is a thing, right?

Natalie
Yup, I think it is.

Rebecca
“I don’t want to have to think about that anymore.” So either way, it seems like she needs to close it, do you think?

Natalie
Yeah. Yeah, I do.

Rebecca
So find some way to put that to rest for herself. It needs some action, right?

Natalie
Yeah. And if that action is even actually just to go back not to the person who potentially does or does not have the book anymore, but to go back to the intermediary and just say, “Hey, what do you think if I asked this?” then maybe that could prompt a conversation that would allow for some loop closing. That could even be the first step. So we’ve got options here. There’s a direct in in going the library route, so that’s one.

Rebecca
And just going straight up to the person and saying, “Hey, this was meant as a library loan, and…”

Natalie
Or, “I didn’t even know what this was meant as, I just really thought of you. And I thought you were amazing. And this was something that might make you feel like this was the thing you needed in that moment. And you know what? Somebody else is having a moment like that, and I really want to have that moment for them, too. Would you be with me in the passing of this on?”

Rebecca
You might want to write out some of that really good wording, Nat. I feel like Ann, if it were me, and possibly with you, you might not have that language accessible to you in that potentially awkward moment. So Natalie will write out a little letter for you. It’s kind of, like, awesomely… like, not manipulative at all, Nat, but it’s framed so nicely to be like, “Will you come with me in this new form of community where we will now pass this book on to this other person who can also benefit, and can we be together in this?”

Natalie
Ok, but as you’re saying it, could you see that as actually…

Rebecca
Yeah, like if you say it like that, I’m kind of like, “Yeah, I want to be in this new community that you’re starting.”

Natalie
Well then, it’s my reframe community — I think has some real value here.

Rebecca
Yeah. In our reframe community, we get what we want, but we…

Natalie
We do it really beautifully, and with a lot of love.

Rebecca
Yeah, and everyone feels good at the end.

Natalie
Yeah.

Rebecca
Hey Reframables: a little housekeeping. Don’t forget to rate, review, or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts if you like what we’re doing here on Reframables. Your feedback really supports this reframing project of ours. Also, please sign up for our weekly newsletter, which comes with a free delicious recipe from Nat. Check us out over on Patreon too, where we do mini-episodes which we call Life Hacks and Enhancers — our five best things in a week. On Patreon, you can become a monthly donor for as little as $2 a month, or you could even tip us on our new Ko-fi account. Lastly, tell us what you like and what you want to hear more of. We love feedback and getting to know you, our listeners. All the links are in our show notes. Love, Reframeables.

Natalie
So I think we’ve got some options here. I’m happy to script — just saying I can. Can do that. I offer some sort of outside perspective, I guess. Becca’s got some thought prompts there to ponder.

Rebecca
Yeah. So just recapping, you were saying you go the direct route or you go through the intermediary.

Natalie
Yeah.

Rebecca
Or you just accept…

Natalie
The loss. Yeah.

Rebecca
That this was something you regret, but I think maybe there’s kind of some talking oneself through it. “I did this thing, it was maybe a little too spontaneous…” It also sounded like maybe she had a feeling like her sister sort of judged, or felt slightly momentarily tickled by her sister’s response to it.

Natalie
Right, like maybe had there not been an outside voice wondering, “Why did you do that?” maybe this tickle would never have started.

Rebecca
Yeah, because I feel that with you sometimes. If I see you have a reaction to something I’ve done, then I’m like, “Oh,” like I really care about your opinion. It sort of exacerbates something, maybe, or it makes me feel it more. So I think: did that potentially happen?

Natalie
What would you say to that? One of the dangers, I think, of not wanting somebody else’s reaction to inform a decision we might make is to hide it, right? And I don’t think that that’s the way forward either. And I don’t hear you saying that one should, but just how do the yous and Anns of the world counter that?

Rebecca
Yeah, that’s a good, hard question too. I think for me, it’s a little bit of trusting my own self and knowing myself, which is something I’m working on. But I know I’ve already said this, I’ve said this so many times, but I’m loving this writing teacher I’m listening to who says that writing really is about learning to trust your own mind. That’s the practice she says of it: is more and more and more, you trust your own mind. So I think that applies to life too. But if I see your face and it seems like shock (I mean, this doesn’t happen very much), but if you seem surprised or you call me out on something, I guess does that mean that my intuition says it was I’m already questioning myself? Is it that, or is it that I just need to continue forward with my choice? Because I do sometimes think I go off course if I think someone is… I mean, I think probably we all do that at some level. So I guess it’s just a question to Ann. Did that reaction…

Natalie
Create the tickle?

Rebecca
Yeah, create the tickle. Or was the tickle already there?

Natalie
Right. Because if the reaction prompted the tickle, then maybe that means that the original desire to give was the right way. Then one can close the loop as, “Well, that was the thing I intended in that moment, and I’ve got good instincts,” because we know Ann does. So there’s something in that self-awareness, yeah?

Rebecca
Totally, “And it’s ok that my sister didn’t agree with me in that moment, but I think it’s important that I follow through.” And the idea that we can’t control reactions after it, I mean, it sounds like there’s also an element of control here. As you say, we can’t control the gift giving, right? So in life, is this an opportunity to just play with releasing control — I mean, which is really hard.

Natalie
Well, and that actually this process of even going to friends, going to, you know, trusted voices who will not try and necessarily give one answer as if it’s the right answer, but a few answers in just solidarity with, right — like, processing through. And, I mean, that is ultimately what reframing is for me, and I’ve said that so many times: the through process. So wherever one lands on the other side has been done not alone. I think that is so key. There’s the reaction part, which you were just sort of touching on, but then there is community, and what does it mean to feel heard and listened to and considered at all sides of, you know, a personal question.

Rebecca
And to have someone honour that — yeah, that there is no one way. Any way could be the right way for you in that moment if you feel like you’ve been able to consider it and share it.

Natalie
Yeah.

Rebecca
Does that make sense?

Natalie
Totally. Last night we were watching, as a little family, we were watching this new favourite cartoon that we watch. It’s called Dead End, and it’s called, like, Adventures of a Paranormal Theme Park. And essentially the two main characters, the one main guy, he’s trans, the other main girl, she’s got anxiety. The two of them are besties with a demon, it’s the whole thing. Anyways, the dog who’s like, it’s his pet, that dog is super loyal, doglike, wants to care for him, but also happens to have magical powers — and had the magical powers to stop a moment from hurting his master, like his friend, and kept stopping the moments. The whole episode was stopping the moment, but every time he’d stop the moment and try again so that his master wouldn’t get hurt, the boy got hurt every time, just in a new way.

Rebecca
Interesting.

Natalie
And the end result of the episode was… oh my gosh, it was one of those typical moments where Clifford’s like, “How are cartoons so much more sophisticated than in our day?” Because I got weepy when the one character, the little girl, the anxiety girl, she was holding on to the puppy, and she was about to get sucked into a vortex as only can happen in cartoons, and she’s like, “You have to just let us make our decisions. Like, sometimes we’re going to get hurt.” And the dog, before he lets her go, he’s like, “Well, how do I stop that?” And she said, “You can’t. You just love us.” And then they go, “Woosh,” and then they disappear — and luckily, the show fixed it and everything went well because it’s a cartoon. But I thought there was something so interesting in that. Like, there was such a community-driven experience of we want to affect and interrupt the potential for pain in the lives of the people that we love, but sometimes…

Rebecca
We can’t.

Natalie
We can’t, and they just have to go through the awkward moment.

Rebecca
But we can just love them.

Natalie
Yeah.

Rebecca
Ok. We love you, Ann. We love you through this tickle.

Natalie
Yeah, this tickle’s a good one, so thank you so much for sharing with us.

Rebecca
It was a good one.