Rebecca
And Bec — two very different sisters who come together each week to reframe some of life’s big and small problems. We’re moms, writers.

Natalie
We have soft boundaries. We see the world differently, but we both lean into vulnerability together and with our guests, because we like deep dives. So come, let’s reframe something. We’ve all heard the adage ‘money talks.’ Well, today we’re reframing how money talks, and how to change the kinds of conversations we have with it. With A.J. Schneider from Beyond the Green Coaching, we talk strategies, we talk budgeting, we talk money in relationships, and then she encourages us to go one step further and really dig deep into our own potential traumas that we have with and through money. I didn’t know I had that kind of trauma, but thanks to this conversation, you’re going to hear that I do. So join us as we reframe money talks.

So just to share with our listeners, you’re a finance coach. So what does that mean, and how did you get into this world?

A.J.
So I’ll start with the easier question: a finance coach is someone in between an accountant and a financial planner. So you go to an accountant, you get your taxes done, they don’t really know your day-to-day lifestyle. They know what they can expense, they know how much you’re bringing in based off of your 1099 or W2s, but they’re not really able to help you kind of manage the day-to-day. And then you have a financial planner, who is assessing and analyzing your retirement strategy, they’re looking at your investments, and they’re telling you, “You need to save X amount to achieve your goals,” but they’re not teaching you how to achieve your goals. They’re just saying, “Here’s a number, make that happen.” They’re not looking at your budget, they’re not assessing how much you need to live off of based off of your lifestyle. And so that’s where I come in. And I’m basically right in between there, where we’re looking at your day-to-day financials, we’re making sure that your income is enough to support your lifestyle, which includes your living expenses, your future living expenses, your future lifestyle expenses, and we’re taking care of your debt. We’re making sure that you’re saving while you’re paying off debt. And we’re changing the most important piece — is that we’re changing your mindset around your relationship with money.

And then your second question: how did I get into it? Well, basically, I did everything wrong with money humanly possible. By 26, I was in credit card debt, student loan debt, that I hadn’t touched in, like, five years. I hadn’t filed my taxes in five years. I owed money to my family. And I just felt completely chained to my debt. I felt like I couldn’t move forward with my life. And I realized around 26 that my friends were starting to get engaged and get married, and my grandparents were getting older. And I just had this moment where I realized that the magical $71,000 check that I thought was going to arrive in the mail was never coming, and I was going to have to be the one to take control over my finances.

And so that’s what I started doing. It was a slow process. I never ever thought I would become a finance coach — I was always the poor friend, I was never good with money. This was not the trajectory. I wanted to be, like, one of the top yoga instructors in the world and travel internationally and teach yoga — like, this was not the path I was going. But I took this training (my last training in the yoga world) and the teacher said, “If I can help a client or a student improve their breath and improve their ability to walk, then I’m doing more good than teaching them a really fancy yoga pose.” And I feel like that’s what I’m doing with money. If I can teach you how to have a better relationship with money, that I’m doing a lot more good than teaching you a one off yoga or meditation class.

Rebecca
Interesting. So how did you bridge the yoga and the money — like, you just made that link for yourself?

A.J.
Yeah, it just made sense. So the arc of my journey into yoga was: I was broken. I felt really broken. And yoga made me feel better. And then I had to go on this whole journey of self-discovery, and start taking accountability for my life and all of the decisions I’ve made that led to where I was where I felt broken. And I needed to forgive myself and I needed to accept my reality — and only in that process could I start to receive the gifts the universe was trying to give me but I wasn’t open to because I was so lost in my own narrative of what I thought the world should be and what I thought I deserved. And I realized that that’s pretty much the same formula for how people are with money. They’re really unwilling to accept the reality. They’re unwilling to forgive themselves or others for why their financial situation is what it is, and therefore they’re missing out on opportunities that are right around the corner from them.

Rebecca
Yeah, money is a very fraught area — and we all follow in the patterns. I mean, do you see that — that people tend to fall in the patterns of their families? Do they do what their families did? Like, “I am with money the way my parents were,” or is it often a reaction, too? Do you often see that?

A.J.
I think it comes in three parts. I think one is the, like, ancestral trauma of money gets passed down. So it might not necessarily look like the same habits, but it’s the same emotions. So for example, the way your mother handles fear and the way you handle fear could be very different, but it’s both coming from a place of fear. The other way I see it is (which I thought that I was doing, but I wasn’t) was the rebellion — like, I’m going to do everything different. Which ends up you’re doing pretty much the same. At least in my case, I thought I was being a rebel and I was actually just repeating the same trauma I had experienced all my life around money. And then the third is, like, a massive, massive codependency on parents, which is probably one of my favourite things to help clients with because I am a recovering codependent, I’ll be a codependent my whole life, but it is the most debilitating relationship with parent to child, where a child doesn’t think that they can be financially autonomous in their life and therefore make any of their own financial decisions and make any of their own life decisions. You know, like choosing the right partner is dependent on your parent’s approval. Choosing the right job is dependent on your parent’s approval, because there’s that financial power dynamic that feels so safe, and is so damaging to a child’s self esteem.

Rebecca
If they feel like they can’t make their own decisions — if they don’t feel empowered to make their own decisions.

A.J.
Exactly. And if they fear that by making their own decisions, they’re betraying, or they’re rejecting their parents, or they’re disrespecting them, or they’re, like, cutting off that lifeline, even if that’s not even true. Those are the fears that they have.

Rebecca
I could just pepper you with questions down this track, but to stay on track here, you work with a whole team of women. Tell us about how you decided to build your business in this way. Do you gravitate towards this female entrepreneurial dynamic?

A.J.
I do have one dude on the team, but he’s an artist. So I think even though he’s very masculine, he is an artist. So, you know, he has a creative feminine nature as well. But I love working with women. I’ve always been a girl’s girl. I’ve always had, like, a million best friends. I had 14 bridesmaids. And I’ve always loved working with women. But a book that really influenced me was Half the Sky by Nicholas Kristof. And there is no net negative to empowering women to be stronger, more independent, assertive women, and I come from a world where my grandfather told me I was going to college to get an Mrs. degree. And I come from a world where you get a job, you get married, you have children. You know, like it’s totally normal for a woman to stop working and support our men. But then I also come from New York City, so I come from, like, the metropolis of incredibly independent entrepreneurial women. My mother was an entrepreneur, very successful entrepreneur. My friend’s parents were doctors, and they owned multiple shops in New York City.

So I grew up kind of in these two worlds where, like, there was definitely a ton of misogyny, and I wanted those things — like I wanted the husband and that life. And then this world where I’m like, “I can do absolutely anything that I want to do because I’m a woman,” and I’m like, “I live in the best time ever to be a woman.” And I’ve always felt that way — like, I was never shy to talk in class. The women in my grade were never shy to talk in class. I just grew up believing that women can do anything, and then when I grew up and realized that, like, the majority of at least America doesn’t feel that way I was like, “I have to do something about it.”

Because going into the financial piece, women are at the most interesting intersection of wealth that they’ve ever been. Even though there is still obviously a wage gap, women historically are doing better in the stock market, we’re set to own more real estate than men, and we’re about to inherit the largest endowment of money ever. Trillions and trillions of dollars are going into the hands of women. And there’s just never been a better time to be a woman and to be financially literate, and so many women are afraid to talk about money, are afraid to have a relationship with money, and just want to hand it off to either their parents or their friends who knows about crypto or their significant other, and they don’t want to own it. And if this doesn’t even matter if they’re in a heterosexual or a relationship with the same sex, there’s this feeling of, “You got it. I don’t need to worry about the money piece. It scares me. I’m bad with math. I’m not good with money. I’m irresponsible,” when there’s so much more to it than that. Because women are inherently very good with money, because our instincts are to survive and have security. So what better, like, foundation to be good with money than those two platforms?

Natalie
Can I take you back for a second to the disconnect? When your grandfather made that comment, it took me a second — like, as you were talking, I’m like, “m, r, s… oh, wait — Mrs.!” Like, it took me a minute. And I’m realizing, like, that’s such an interesting disconnect between what your grandfather said, but then how you described your mother. So that must have felt like you were really, as you said, living in two mental and emotional worlds.

A.J.
I think I still am because, obviously, it’s so ingrained. Like, for example, a friend just told me that her single friend for her birthday last year made a registry. And I said, “I don’t know how I feel about that.” And she was like, “Why?” And I was like, “Well, because there’s this part of me that’s like, ‘As a married woman, I have gotten to benefit immensely from my engagement, my marriage, having a child, I get all these gifts.’” And so part of me is like, “Hell yeah,” — like, go do the registry, you know? But then there’s this, like, traditionalist side of me that’s like, “Wait your turn,” and then I’m like, “Eww, where does that come from?” Maybe she doesn’t even want those things. And why should she be without because she doesn’t want those things and I get to benefit, and all the women who get engaged and married and have babies get to benefit?

Rebecca
And your mom must have been fighting that same battle internally, because she’s a generation older. So it was her father, who was super traditional. AJ My mom’s situation is really fascinating, because she’s right up there in my mind growing up with, like, Hillary Clinton. Like, that’s the world that I was in. I mean, I grew up with like, Mayor Giuliani’s daughter — we went to preschool together. So I just, like, had these views of women — it was just: this is how it’s always been. But I think so much of her energy was trying to prove to her father that she could be this successful entrepreneur. And I’ve had a lot of time to reflect, because when you’re pregnant (I mean, you know, I don’t need to tell you) — just the level of exhaustion, and, like, you’re kind of forced to, and I realized one of my biggest goals is that I am going to not try and be the opposite of what I think was done badly for me, because that takes up so much energy — like, I’m just going to do everything different than what my mom did what my dad did. That’s, like, so much, and I think that inevitably ended up burning her out. And now her take on it is that I was living in a man’s world, and I was just trying to survive as a woman in a man’s world. But that’s not how I interpreted it, because I thought my mom was very feminine — not in the way that she did business (or that’s how I associated business), but definitely, I just didn’t associate that. But now she’s like, “I was in a man’s world, living in a man’s world, and these were the rules, and I did them.” So it’s interesting how that’s shifted for her.

Rebecca
What is the deal with, “Women are set to inherit trillions of dollars”?

A.J.
We’re living in a time where parents could give their money to women. I mean, it wasn’t that long ago that women had no ownership of their property or their finances or their inheritance at all. It would immediately go to their husbands. I mean, that was like, maybe a hundred years ago. And so women didn’t have access to it. They didn’t own anything. They were property given to men. And so now we are not, and there’s a lot more wealth — I mean, the middle class, the baby boomers and the generation before them, and that whole middle class, and them owning these properties that they bought for $50,000 that are now worth a million, and pensions, and all of that stuff. There’s just a lot of money. There’s a lot of money to be distributed. The older generation is not going to use all of it by the time they die, and so it’s going to go to their children, and now it can go to women. And so women are set to benefit from a ton of that inheritance.

Natalie
And maybe even do something different with it. Like in terms of the way that the world works, right now, it could stand to have a whole lot of change.

A.J.
This is something that I’m so, so passionate about, because it does nobody good for you to have a million dollars sitting in a trust fund that you don’t feel that you earned or own, because it’s not your money — you didn’t earn it. And then you just let it sit there. And then you don’t do anything that’s within your values with that money. So you say you want to go help minority-owned businesses, but then you let that money just sit with the old crotchety financial adviser who’s telling you to keep that money safe and secure, because they make their paycheck off of that money. And they don’t want to understand it, they don’t want to own it, because there’s this, like, immense guilt and feeling of, like, scarcity — if they touch it, they’re going to not have it anymore, and they just want it safe, and they just don’t want to think about it.

Natalie
That scarcity mindset is very interesting to me. That’s a good segue into this next question, because we have a missed moments series coming up, which you were a part of, and we had asked you to tell us, like, a missed moment story (that we’re going to be sharing soon), but just kind of giving our listeners a sneak peek of it: in that story, you talk about a really important money conversation that you had to build up to with your best friend. And that was really interesting to us, because a) money feels really private, and b) it’s something that we’ve both discussed, like, in house, right — in our very intimate sort of partnership relationships. But that conversation really happened beyond the home. So is it important to widen our circle of sharing when it comes to finance health? So can you give us, like, a recap of that story, and then maybe an answer to that question?

A.J.
Yes. So I had travelled the world with this particular best friend. We backpacked through Asia for six months together, and then she came back to the states and I moved to Australia and New Zealand for two years. And then when I came home, we would go to The Hamptons, we went to Brazil together. And basically, I didn’t even have a credit card at this time — my credit score was, like, 500. And I didn’t trust myself to even apply for one. So this was basically just like: whatever money I would get, I would just go and spend on these, like, momentary fixes. And I was at this moment when I realized the check was never going to arrive and fix all my problems. And I was like, “Oh, I’m responsible for this, which means I have to start behaving differently.” And as a recovering codependent, I’m also a chronic people pleaser. And so much of my identity was wrapped in if I’m needed, and if I can fix somebody or have value in their life, then they won’t leave me. And so saying no was a very, very big thing for me. Because my identity was if I said no, then I’m going to lose this lifeline which is my best friend, because my family was so fractured that I had… like, I had chosen family, and she was one of my chosen family. And if I said no to her, then maybe it would change our relationship, and she wouldn’t be my best friend anymore.

And so I also knew that by saying no to this was me saying, “Oh, I’m actually going to have to take this seriously, and I’m actually going to have to honour my word here.” And if I’m saying I’m not going to Sri Lanka (which is where she wanted to go) and I’m going to pay off my debt, then I actually have to take steps in order to make that happen, because then she’s going to call me out on that forever, and it’s going to be so annoying. She’s going to see me get my nails done and be like, “Is that in your budget?” You know, “We didn’t go to Sri Lanka, and you’re going out to bars at night.” And so it was just this big moment of me reckoning and being like, “I’m actually going to do what I say that I want so badly.”

And so I wrote down, like, all the reasons why I couldn’t go — you know, grandparents getting older, I have a wedding in June I need to save for, I’m in all of this debt, I don’t even know how much debt I’m in, and I have no savings. And I’m, like, shaking and she’s like, “What’s up?” Like, “Why are you being so weird?” And then I, like, tried to read it to her and she was like, “What? Just tell me.” And I was like, “I can’t go, because I need to make a change in my life, and no one’s going to fix this problem for me.” And she was like, “Ok, do you want to call the debt collector?” And it was a Sunday and they weren’t open, but she, like, held my hand and I called the debt collectors, and that was not the right thing to do and that’s not what I tell my clients to do as their first step. But it was a step for me. And it didn’t happen immediately. There were still, like, lots of things that needed to happen in between there. But that started the journey of me being like, “Ok, I’m going to take this seriously, because I am the only one responsible for this mess,” — even if I could blame somebody else for putting me in it.

Natalie
So then it really was important that you actually involve her in this process — like, she was your intimate partner in that moment.

A.J.
Yes. That answers your second question, which I a hundred million percent believe that you should be opening up your circle to talk about finances. And if you are financially sound and stable and secure, then the conversations look very different than if you’re on a really tight budget, paying off debt and, like, trying to build an emergency fund. Like budgeting — I think why I love budgeting so much, it’s like the most radical form of boundary-setting in the world. It’s, like, so definitive. “I cannot afford this. We have to do something else. No, I cannot go to the Soho House, which is a $28 cocktail. I can go here, which is a $14 cocktail.” Like, “Are you cool with that?” That’s always the example I give. Normally, what people would say is, “Oh, I’m not feeling well tonight.” Or, like, they’ll get mad at their friend for even suggesting — “How dare you. I’m trying to get my finances in order, and you suggested I go to this really expensive place.” It’s like, “No, that’s not on them. That’s where they want to go, they can afford it.” It’s your job to say, “This is what I can afford. Can you meet me halfway?” Or, “Hey, I really don’t want to go out tonight, because I don’t have it in my budget this month. But I would love to cook you dinner.” And you can’t have that conversation in a silo.

Rebecca
So you don’t see budgeting as a burden at all. You see it, really, as a strategy for health and wellness, really.

A.J.
I see it as freedom. I genuinely see budgeting as freedom.

Rebecca
How does your husband see it?

A.J.
The same. One of the things my grandparents always said is: it’s difficult in a marriage if you both have two really opposing views about money. Like if one’s a spender and one’s a saver, it can always just add a lot of contention. And my husband and I, we have the same philosophy on budgeting. My husband grew up very financially stable. At 10 years old, he spent all of his money, you know, his allowances by baseball cards, and he hated that feeling. And so he was like, “I’m never not going to have savings,” at 10 years old. Where I started babysitting at 13, and I made hundreds and hundreds of dollars a month. I didn’t save a dime of it.

So, like, we have a different set of, like, what makes us feel safe. I tend to now feel a lot more safe than he does. Which is so fascinating, because I’m like, “You don’t even know what it’s like to be poor. You have no idea what it’s like to live off 15 cents in your bank account. Like, we’re good. We’re fine.” But we budget every month. He was a huge institution in creating my financial literacy. I joke that when we met I was, like, budgeting off of napkins like J.K. Rowling. And he actually, like, instead of me resisting and having ego and being like, “I need to figure this out on my own, I made this mess,” I let him support me. He has an accounting background, and did budgeting and forecasting for years in his career, and now works with financial systems applications and implementation. Yeah, we love talking personal finance.

Rebecca
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So it’s no surprise that financial freedom and one’s mental health and wellness are connected. We’re hearing that really strongly. So what’s a strategy for financial health and bodily health that you have experienced in your own personal journey, AJ?

A.J.
I love this question so much, because this is where I really can bring in, like, the yoga background. So essentially, when we’re talking about financial wellness and changing our relationship with money, we’re talking about rewiring the nervous system. So why money is such a powerful agent of change and transformation is because we transact every day. So you’re swiping your credit card, even if you didn’t spend a single dollar in one day, you’re living with a roof over your head, so you’re paying utilities, rent, cable, all of your monthly subscriptions — like, you’re always transacting. And what so many Americans (I can speak to other countries, but, you know, I’m an American working mainly, predominantly with Americans and a couple of people in Europe) is that every time they swipe, they’re reigniting a neuron that already exists that tells them, “You’re in danger.” So it’s saying, “You don’t have enough money in your bank account, you can’t really afford that.” You’re responding to an emotional, external reaction. So a trigger, you’re feeling lonely, you’re feeling burnt out, you’re feeling fearful, you’re feeling less than — a comparative. And you’re going and you’re transacting, and what’s happening inside is that your nervous system is responding like, “I’m in danger.” And you’re just setting deeper and deeper grooves in your neuroplasticity that this behaviour not only is ok, but it’s actually what’s keeping you safe — and it’s actually making you feel like shit and garbage.

And so when you change and reframe your mindset by budgeting, so that when you go and you swipe your card, you’re like, “I can afford this. I’m not reacting to an emotional trigger. I’m not reacting to loneliness. This is within my budget. I am safe. I have a debt repayment plan. I have savings goals that I’m working towards — like, I’m achieving these things, I’m being successful at them.” Then all those sudden, those neural pathways that have been there for probably years, it’s like a highway that stops getting used, and you start creating new neural pathways. And then those grooves get deeper, and so then every time you swipe, you’re like, “I am safe, I am secure, I can afford this.” And all of a sudden, you just start feeling more confident, and more secure in your decision-making. And it is really this, like, is it the chicken or the egg thing — where it’s like, your small daily decisions are helping you build this financial resilience and confidence so that when you go to your boss in six months from doing this work, and you’re like, “I want a raise,” it’s not coming from this place of like, “You owe me, I’m desperate — like, you don’t understand, I can’t afford my bills,” — like, angry, resentful, frustrated. It’s coming from this, like, internal confidence — that you’re like, “Wow, I’m the shit. Like, I’m doing good things in the world, like, I deserve this, and, like, good things are gonna happen.” And then they do. You know, like, there’s a reason why people work with us and they find the love of their life. We had one client, who was making $30,000 when she started working with us, is now making $175,000 and has equity in her company. It’s because your, like, whole entire being changes. Because internally, you’re using an entirely new set of neurons that are firing that are attracting all of these amazing, wonderful, abundant things into your life.

Rebecca
And it’s really not about how much you have, it’s about your mindset.

A.J.
I can’t emphasize this enough. And I’m 33, turning 34 next month, and it is definitely this feeling of like, “Wow, it’s taken me a while to get here,” but the foundation of my wealth was built between $40,000 and $60,000 a year in income — the foundation of my wealth. So it has nothing to do with how much you earn, and nothing to do with how much debt you’re in. It’s whether you’re willing to actually do the work and face it and change.

Natalie
I’m taking that in because I have spent 20 years teaching in predominantly underserved communities in the city of Toronto. So it’s an interesting one to have to, like, sit with that language, because I see so many kids who a lot of financial freedom kind of language will definitely be a part of their story in terms of potential future… you know what I mean, like, security. At the same time, systems are inherently skewed towards, well, not them. So…

A.J.
You’re 100% right, and I cannot have this conversation without acknowledging my privilege. Even the fact if, like, I had no inheritance, I had no savings, I still had a private school education, I still was surrounded by affluent people. I wasn’t denied jobs because of the colour of my skin. I was able to take a lot of risks because of my privilege. And so I 100% agree that, like, my narrative and my ability to change my mindset, yes, came from a lot of hard work and dedication, and really spending the majority of my life self-discovering, but it also comes from privilege.

Rebecca
But then what is an action that every person could take? Because I’m even thinking of my daughter, who’s starting to make money from teaching piano and babysitting.

A.J.
Oh, that’s cool.

Rebecca
Some of the kids that Nat’s talking about that she’s taught, what is an action that everyone can take?

A.J.
I tend to find that a lot of kids are pretty entrepreneurial, unless their parents are really adamant that they don’t do that, or they’re, like, really not into that. But a lot of kids are, and you could do incredible things at such a young age. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is you can set up a Roth IRA. So I think your parent would need to set it up, but ultimately, if you’re earning income that’s taxable at any age (you could be five years old being a model), you could set that into a retirement account. And what’s really cool about a Roth IRA is that hypothetically, if, you know, let’s say you started at 10 and you saved, you know, a few thousand bucks every month, and then when that kid’s, like 25, you can take out contributions tax-free, no penalty, if they wanted to, like, you know, buy a home. Which is, like, nuts at 25. That’s a huge one, and there’s no barrier to entry there other than you need to make taxable income. There’s a whole world of people who are just trying to get away with paying as little taxes as possible, so they wouldn’t, like, want their kid to show that money as taxable income. But if it means that you can have hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars sitting in a retirement account by the time you’re in your 50s by starting at 10, I think it’s worth paying tax on.

Another thing that you can do (this is a really big one) is that, granted, I’m not a mother yet, so I will let you know in a couple years, but you know, your children mirror you. They don’t listen to you. And so if budgeting is a piece of your life, it will be a piece of their life. And there’s ways that you can interact with your children in budgeting that makes them financially literate at a young age. But if you ask me, “What’s the one thing parents can do,” it’s budget. And if you ask me, “What’s one thing a kid can do,” is learn the value of saving.

Natalie
Somehow going back and bouncing what you were talking about in terms of the rewiring, right — like, the desire to spend and treat oneself and feeling, like, the need to sort of satiate something. That, like, we deserve it, right? I’ve worked hard, I want this treat, versus, you know, putting something aside in savings for a future goal, and then finding a balance between the two.

A.J.
Exactly.

Rebecca
And the reward of that saving.

Natalie
Yeah — that there’s reward in both.

A.J.
Yes. It was funny — you know, there’s always trends on social media, and someone sent me one and it was like, “I broke my ribs, I got five stitches, I sprained my ankle, and it was all worth it.” And she sent that to me, and she was like, “You should do a post like this. This feels applicable to saving.” And I was like, “No, it’s not. It’s applicable maybe to paying off debt, because paying off debt can feel really grudging and, like, pounding and painful. But savings very quickly feels like a game, and feels so effortless and fun — eventually.”

Natalie
Eventually — I like that.

On your website, you really do use language (so we’ll have it posted in the show notes so that people can go check it out themselves), but you have words like, “Be honest,” or, “Heal your relationship,” which are, like, really human words, but yet you’re framing money — like, that’s how you talk about money. So tell us more about how you might talk about a relationship with a loved one, but now make it money.

A.J.
That’s exactly what we do. That’s it. I actually have clients, like, acknowledge that the way they treat money is the way that they treat a relationship in their life — like a person. And it’s like, if you’re shaming money, if you’re resenting money, if you’re blaming money, like, that’s not going to be a successful relationship. I remember I was dating this guy back in New Zealand, and I would go to work and I would shit talk him for, like, five of the eight hours we were there, and then I would come home and be like, “Why does our relationship suck?” And then I was like, “I’m going to stop talking about him.” And I stopped talking about him and our relationship improved. And I was like, “Oh — like, I can’t have it both ways. I can’t have this amazing relationship, and then go and shit talk him to my friends.” Which sounds, like, so obvious, but it was like this huge moment for me.

And it took years to correlate that with money, but it was the same thing. If I’m walking around being like, “Oh, I’m so broke, I’m so stressed about my debt,” it’s a mutual relationship. And then what was really powerful for me is that my grandparents always said that you should have four pillars in a successful relationship: love, respect, trust, and communication. And so, right as I was getting my finances in order, like getting really serious about it, I was dating this guy for like three months, and it absolutely broke my heart into a million pieces. And I was like, “I don’t want to do that again.” So I actually, like, did a historical analysis of all of my relationships based off love, respect, trust, and communication. And I made this, like, sheet out. And I just checked off which ones were in the relationship, and what was missing, and every single relationship was missing one or two of them. And I was like, “Oh,” and then it hit me that how I treated money was exactly how I was showing up in romantic relationships. I wasn’t loving myself, I wasn’t respecting myself, and I certainly didn’t trust myself, and I wasn’t communicating. And I was like, “If I can take these four pillars and treat money this way, then I’m pretty sure that’s going to impact my love life.” And then five months later, you know, I attracted in my husband.

Rebecca
That’s cool. It’s radical. I like it, AJ. Even if a value isn’t to be rich — that isn’t everyone’s values, I would be imagining, on our podcast. We’re probably not attracting a huge population of like, wealth, financial seekers, that type of person. But this doesn’t mean you can’t treat money with respect. You know what I mean?

A.J.
100%.

Rebecca
You know, we grew up in a Christian environment where we’re brought up on values of Jesus, you know, giving to the poor, and it’s very much not a wealth accumulation Christian mentality. We didn’t go to those churches that are about… what do you call them, Nat?

Natalie
The prosperity churches.

Rebecca
Yeah, prosperity churches — that wasn’t us. So kind of, we were very, like, simple — just money wasn’t a value. But I think you don’t have to want a lot of money if you can still just accept that this is part of our life. You can’t avoid money, so you might as well get into a good relationship with it.

A.J.
Exactly. It’s one of the longest relationships you have in your whole life.

Natalie
I’m really having to sit in this one today, because I definitely feel like I’ve done a lot of the things that you’re talking about in terms of being pretty good with budgeting. When I got divorced years and years ago, I had to figure out how to do it on my own. And so I got very good at sort of living carefully, and figuring all that out. But I don’t think I’ve had a healthy relationship in terms of, like, you use the word ‘resentment’ — like, I think I resent money sometimes. And that’s like, “Oh, I’ve got to sit with that,” because I don’t want to, like, want it more, but at the same time resenting it’s not doing anything, if it’s taking up space in my heart and body. So I think anybody listening to this conversation could take something away from it in terms of just their own… not just practice in terms of what they’re doing with their money, but it’s about the feelings. Like if somebody is holding on too tight, or letting go too quickly — like, it’s all going back to that relationship piece.

A.J.
Exactly. I don’t have a one-size-fits-all approach to coaching. We have a methodology and a process, but we work with clients who have $30,000 sitting in their checking account because they’re too afraid to do anything with it, and then we have clients who are in $30,000 worth of credit card debt. And so you’re not giving the same advice there. And I do really think this is where the yoga piece comes in. It’s really like the balance of having a communication, a conversation with your money, and be realistic and honest and not shaming and blaming in that realism. And then having fun — I mean, like that’s the whole point, right? Why do we work so hard? To hold on so tight and not to live within our values, we will inevitably take out that resentment and frustration out on something.

Rebecca
I like this: that you say, “Healing your relationship with money enables you to give generously, take gracefully, and appreciate every little moment in between.” And we love this because it reframes talking about money as something beyond the self. So maybe you could just close this off with: what do you mean when you say those words?

A.J.
I am so glad you picked that line, because I’m so passionate about it. And I’ll start backwards. The being present: if you are in a chronic state of fight and flight and fear, you’re not present in your relationships, you’re not present in your life. You’re showing up waiting for the shoe to drop, or you’re showing up with that energy, and I think the kindest thing that you can give to somebody is your full presence. And for me, that was releasing all of the debilitating and chronic stress I had around money. And once I started feeling more secure, I could show up way more presently. Because, like I said, I did all the things, all the dumb stuff — like, I travelled the world, I moved to Australia with $50 in my bank account. You’re not present, you’re just trying to survive. And when we try to survive, we can’t be our best self. And so getting our nervous system to a place where we can feel safe on a daily basis will allow us to show up in relationships more presently, and with less projection, and less expectation of outcome.

I work mainly with women, both as clients and with my coaches. And we want to give. We want to give. You just that you come from, like, a religion where it was very instilled in you to give to charity, and to live modestly. And there are so many stories I’ve heard of, “Oh, my mother really never spent any money on herself, but then would always go out and buy so many gifts for the family, and so many gifts for everybody.” Because if you’re depriving yourself, it needs to get out there somewhere, right? Like, that fix. We live in a capitalist society — like, we have temptations all around us. So if you can’t spend it on yourself, you’re going to go and spend it on other people. And as being the poor friend, one of the things you’re most insecure about is feeling like a charity case, and also feeling indebted to somebody else — having another debt.

And so people who are in more fortunate situations… or even not, I work with plenty of clients who put themselves in debt during Christmas, during the holidays, gift-giving — like, outrageous amounts of debt. It’s like, where is that gift coming from, because if the other person can’t reciprocate or feels like they then have to, it, like, changes the power dynamic. And so when you are sound body and mind with your finances, and you’re being really transparent with everybody in your life, then gift-giving, and giving of your time, and giving of your money feels so much better than… it’s not coming from a place of, “Oh, you,” it’s not coming from a place of, “If I don’t give this to you, you’ll leave me,” — which was, like, a big one for me. And so when I gave my time, specifically, it was so much more generously, because it wasn’t coming from a place where I have to fix you, and then you’ll love me. It was like: I can competently give you this time of mine, because it works for me and it works for you. And then the final piece is the receiving, which I actually think is very difficult for people. I could spend an entire PhD dissertation on why I think that is. But ultimately, if you can’t receive, then you have absolutely no right to give. And it’s not fair if you just want to be the one giving and giving and giving and not taking anything for yourself. Like, no one is that selfless — maybe Mother Teresa. No one should have to be that selfless. There’s no reason — like, everybody should get to enjoy the high of giving and receiving. It should be mutually beneficial.

Natalie
You’ve given us a lot to think about today, AJ.

Rebecca
Indeed.

A.J.
Oh, I’m so excited. We might have to do a follow-up of all your thoughts.

Rebecca
Definitely, I feel like I need to go back, I need to start modelling budgeting. I feel that really strongly for my daughters. We’re not great budgeters, and we haven’t set that up as something… I think maybe that’s why I use the word ‘fun’ off the top, like I think I have this value of being fun. And that’s just silliness — like, I can still be fun and budget. And in fact, that will set them up so much better.

A.J.
Can I share really quickly my favourite budgeting tip I got from my very good friend for kids?

Rebecca
Oh, yes.

A.J.
So what she does is she has three beautiful children — they’re all in college now, but when they were younger, they all had a chore or certain sets of chores and they would get an allowance. But their allowance included: they had to buy a household item. So it was a little bit for them, and then it was: you had to buy the dog food, the ink for the printer, and then, like, another thing… I think they had a frog, and then you would have to buy the frog’s food or whatever. And if they spent too much, then, oop, dog’s not eating. There’s no printer paper. And I just, like, thought that was the most brilliant… I cannot wait until my child is old enough to start doing this where it’s like: they had a chore, they had an expectation, they got paid, but they got paid enough to, like, give them their, you know, allowance fix. But then they also had a responsibility that in the week timeframe, they had to go and purchase the thing for the home. So they became part of, like, the home process versus, you know, being given everything.

Natalie
That’s interesting.

A.J.
And that’s fun.

Rebecca
Although given the nature of prices, allowance is going to have to go way up.

Natalie
I know, I was going to say — with inflation…

A.J.
Yeah, right. Right, right, right. But you’d be spending that money anyway.

Natalie
That’s an interesting one, because even just the idea of, like, when my son will unload the dishwasher, like when we have our little duties or whatever, and then he’s like, “Ok, do I get paid?” And it’s like, I’m having to work on how I frame that too. Because it’s like, “Well, who’s getting paid to do what activity?” “What does it mean to be fully a part of the home?” becomes the sort of larger question. So it’s an interesting one. I like that — like, where it’s about actually what is an expense that’s attached to living in this home and then having to have that conversation. That sounds perhaps more tangible than just being paid to do the task.

A.J.
Yeah, I’m a really big fan. I can’t wait. I’ll let you know how it goes in, like, 10 years.

Natalie
Ok, well, we’ll touch base before then.

A.J.
Perfect.