Rebecca
And Bec — two very different sisters who come together to reframe some of life’s big and small problems. We’re moms, writers.

Natalie
We have soft boundaries. We see the world differently, but we both lean into vulnerability together and with our guests, because we like deep dives. So come with us — let’s reframe something.

Rebecca
This week on Reframeables, we spoke with author Lisa Whittington-Hill about her new book Girls, Interrupted: How Pop Culture is Failing Women. With Lisa, we jumped right in with a discussion about female rage, considered the failings of media for middle age women and teenage girls, and shared some nostalgic memories of Courtney Love — who Lisa has defended loudly enough to get her thrown out of parties. We are unhappy with the misogyny that is baked into pop culture and social media, but we are happy to have conversations with someone like Lisa who is doing work to interrupt it. So here it is: reframing Courtney Love — fighting gender bias in pop culture.

Ok, Lisa, talk to us about how we love to see women fail — which is something, ok, I feel uncomfortable with even asking that, but I’m deeply rooted in misogynistic culture, so I have to examine myself in this too. And in your essay about pop culture and the story of female grifters, you point out some really uncomfortable truths, like how the sociological blame game only benefits male fraudsters. So talk to us.

Lisa
That’s a great place to start. Let’s dive right in. You know, obviously I feel uncomfortable with that statement too — you know, I certainly don’t love to see women fail. I certainly don’t think the three of us love to see women fail. But like you pointed out, you know, we live in a misogynistic society that loves to tear women down and see women fail. And when it’s time for that to happen, there’s a whole kind of infrastructure or apparatus there just ready to do it. Talking particularly about this essay in the book about female grifters, female con artists — you know, like others, I was obsessed with Anna Delvey, the infamous Soho grifter, and Elizabeth Holmes, who founded the health tech company Theranos. And I certainly wasn’t the only one obsessed, you know, about the two of them — there were a ton of magazine stories and documentaries and books and podcasts. There was a play about Anna Delvey, you know, a Netflix series about her, a Hulu series about Elizabeth Holmes. So certainly, you know, as a society, we’re very obsessed with them. Pop culture is very obsessed with them. And one of the things I talk about in the essay is that I started to notice how differently these women were portrayed in pop culture compared to male fraudsters. In the essay, I talk about Billy McFarland, who started the Fyre Festival — the infamous Fyre Festival. Or the Tinder swindler — you know, that was a big Netflix series.

And I really noticed that there was a distinct gender bias at play in how their crimes were covered. And when we talked about, you know, Billy McFarland and when his crimes and frauds were discussed, there seemed to be this focus on blaming others. You know, from the Millennials — you know, the sociological kind of generational blame game, blaming the millennials who stupidly shelled out money to attend the festival, or, you know, the influencers and models who were mostly women who promoted the festival. And the focus was really on the societal factors that might have led to McFarland’s crimes. So there was a lot of talk about Silicon Valley and Wall Street greed, and, you know, the fact that McFarland was a millennial — you know, part of this generation that can only think big. And this all had the effect of kind of failing to hold him accountable for his crimes. We kind of wanted to blame everyone else, except for Billy McFarland, the man who committed these crimes and this fraud. And we kind of saw the same thing happen with the Tinder swindler — you know, people were really quick to blame the women who were duped by this man, you know, rather than the man who had conned these women out of millions of dollars.

And I think I started to see that women like Elizabeth Holmes and Anna Delvey weren’t treated this way. You know, the blame was solely theirs to bear and, you know, we didn’t blame societal factors, we blamed solely them. And there was so much coverage devoted to their arrests and their hearings and their court dates and their downfalls in a way that we didn’t see with male fraudsters. We loved to see them fail. And I also kind of noticed this trend when I was looking at them where, you know, we didn’t call male fraudsters like Billy McFarland criminals — you know, we called them disruptors. You know, they’re not committing fraud, they’re shaking up the system. Or they’re visionaries, they’re not con artists. And I think we didn’t talk about women like Anna Delvey and Elizabeth Holmes that way. And there was also kind of this thinking that the crimes of women like Elizabeth Holmes could bring down all of Silicon Valley — that, you know, she could destroy this whole ‘fake it till you make it’ mantra that’s kind of baked right into Silicon Valley. And, you know, nothing like that happened. Her crimes certainly didn’t bring down all of Silicon Valley, but she certainly did make it harder for women to be trusted and taken seriously in tech startups and in the business world. So, you know, we’d love to see scammers fail, but certainly what I discovered in writing that essay in the book was we love it more when it’s a woman.

Natalie
It’s, like, really depressing.

Lisa
Yeah, writing a book about how pop culture is failing women for two years was really depressing.

Natalie
Oh my gosh, Lisa — thank you for the effort that you put in for all of us in doing that work, but oh my gosh. Like, you must have needed some serious walk therapy just to kind of, like, clear your mind after every one of them.

Lisa
I took a lot of walks.

Natalie
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean, it’s interesting — like, the next thing I want to talk about is rage. And we can rage about the ridiculousness of it all on the heels of those two women and, like, what they represent. But I mean, I think that what’s beautiful about what you did in Girls, Interrupted with rage was your sort of taking us towards, or back to — because both Bec and I come from a time similar to you of, like, when we were really excited about these women in grunge. I went to an art school for high school and so that was everybody — like, everybody in the visual arts hallway. That was, like, what everybody’s aesthetic kind of represented, was this grunge music. But very much, I would say, connected to the men, right? So, like, I remember walking into the hallway one day and one of my classmates, I’m in grade nine or grade 10, and it was the day after Kurt Cobain had died, and everybody who was in the know now knew. And that was a really, really impactful sort of story that, you know, when people say, “Where were you when this happened?” — that was, definitely, and you talk about this in your essay. So anyways — like, let’s talk about rage and the women from grunge who you’d say built what was that world, and yet it’s been mainstream media who could, like, handle the politics of all of that as long as it was the men doing the politicking.

Lisa
You know, there is an essay in the book about grunge. You know, I’m gen x, so certainly I grew up with grunge, and I think there was this kind of feeling that grunge was this really progressive movement. And the essay in the book is kind of unpacking that and looking at, you know, maybe it wasn’t the kind of progressive movement we thought it was. And talking about kind of rage and anger — and certainly in the 90s, you know, we loved our angry male singers. You know, we loved Kurt Cobain (you know, I loved Kurt Cobain), Eddie Vedder, Trent Reznor, you know — these men were allowed to be angry, and they were celebrated for it. I talk in the book because I always remember this even though it’s been decades, you know — I remember that 1993 Time magazine cover, and it had this kind of, “All the Rage” coverline and it had a picture of Eddie Vedder. You know, and apparently it came down to Kurt Cobain or Eddie Vedder on the cover, and both didn’t want to be on the cover, but the magazine put Eddie Vedder on anyways.

But the story talked about this kind of new breed of male rock stars who were expressing the anger of a generation — and of course they were all men. A few years later you had, you know, Jagged Little Pill come out, and Alanis Morissette, and that album and Alanis were huge. And you know, women like Alanis were kind of accused of manufacturing rage to sell records — you know, as marketing. Or, you know, they were referred to in this kind of one-dimensional, stereotypical way — you know, as the angry female rocker, you know? And there were all these women kind of lumped into that — that kind of trope of the angry female rocker. And I think when I was writing that essay and thinking about rage and women’s rage, you know, I think we’re still in a similar place. I think, you know, women’s outspokenness still scares people and it makes people feel uncomfortable. And I think, you know, we saw that reaction to women like Alanis Morissette in the 90s.

And we still see that. You know, I don’t think we’re accusing women of manufacturing as a marketing strategy in the same way we did in the 90s, but you know, we have MeToo, and we have women speaking out. And I think there is still this desire to silence outspoken women and to discredit them and to vilify them and to take them down. And I talk about this a lot in the book — you know, to make these women unlikable. And there are countless examples in the book, you know, from Angelina Jolie to Amber Heard to Olivia Wilde. You know, there’s countless examples to draw on.

And I really feel like there’s kind of a backlash right now and really a much stronger attempt to silence women who speak out, and women who support progressive causes and who don’t conform. And, you know, we see these attempts by everyone from, you know, right-wing politicians in the States, to Johnny Depp supporters on Twitter, to mainstream media. And I just finished watching (you know, I’ve watched it a couple of times now) the Netflix series about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. And you kind of see this playbook of how to silence women — of how to discredit them, these outspoken women. And it’s a playbook that men, both famous and not famous, are using every day and have used for decades. Like, women’s anger and women’s outspokenness still makes people very uncomfortable.

Rebecca
A couple of times in the book, Lisa, you mention yourself getting kicked out of parties. And I don’t know if that’s for your own moments of rage, but I was like, “Wow, good for her.” I don’t know, in my life, if I would have had the courage to be so outspoken to get me kicked out of a party. And tell me if that’s true, or you were embellishing.

Lisa
It is true. It was mostly in the 90s. I had a habit of defending Courtney Love a lot, and talking about Courtney Love a lot, and getting into fights with men about Courtney Love. And I was asked to leave — to either stop defending Courtney Love or leave the party. And I chose to leave the party. I already had my coat on, like, in my defense. You know, but I think, you know, Courtney Love (and she’s, you know, someone who has also been portrayed as, like, an angry female rocker) makes people really uncomfortable. There are some friends that I have, like, a “No Courtney Love” clause with — that, like, we just agree to disagree, and we don’t talk about her. But yeah — you know, eventually my parties came with kind of a “No Courtney Love” clause because, you know, I love Courtney.

Natalie
That’s brilliant.

Rebecca
You started your writing career in a little alternative magazine at Edmonton. And you write, “It was one of my first experiences with the idea that just calling a space progressive doesn’t make it so, and that claiming to question dominant narratives doesn’t automatically make you more ethical.” So that’s really interesting. What has been a disappointing and not-so-progressive space for you even since that time — and maybe you could bring us back to that earlier day?

Lisa
Yeah, sure. So this was the mid-90s, and I had finished a two year journalism program in Edmonton where I grew up, and I was interning at — you know, there was two alternative weeklies at the time in Edmonton, and I was an intern. And I was really, really excited. It was, you know, kind of my dream internship. And I think at the time, you know, it was the mid-90s and there was all this kind of focus on alternative culture and alternative media, and I think it was really easy at the time and kind of thinking back on it — you know, it was really easy to throw around those labels without actually thinking about what they meant, you know, or what alternative media looks like or should look like. And it’s a lot more than just not working for the man, which I think is largely how we thought about it at the time. But we just kind of say, “Oh, I work in alternative media,” and wouldn’t kind of think about, “Ok, well, what does that mean, or what should that mean, or what should that look like?”

And I think thinking about, you know, there have been a number of so-called progressive spaces that have disappointed me since that time. But I’m going to say — yeah, it was hard to narrow down one. Right? This book was so depressing to write. I still work in media — you know, I’m lucky enough to still work in media. It’s a challenging industry. And, you know, now I am the publisher of a small progressive magazine in Toronto. I would say, you know, that publishing and media and the media industry still has work to do in terms of being progressive and in terms of being diverse and being inclusive. And, you know, things have definitely changed and improved since, you know, that internship I did way back in the mid-90s, but it’s still not an even playing field and changes happen, but it can be slow. So, you know, I would say maybe the same type of space.

Natalie
I said, “Hmm,” and I almost went like this — so for anybody who was watching us, that would be, like, me scratching my chin. I’m 45 and I am starting to experience that middle-aged reality of, you know, whatever — like, the hair, the odd hair that sort of shows up because our bodies are changing. And I saw a little meme the other day about, you know, you can age a person by their rubbing of their chin when they’re thinking, because a woman is not actually thinking, she’s feeling for that hair. And I was like, “Fuck you,” whoever it was. And then at the same time, I’m like, “Hashtag relatable,” — like, it was just one of those kinds of moments, right? Like where I was like, “Ok, so this is 45. This is movement forward.”

Anyways, all to say, your opening essay in Girls, Interrupted is “Middle-Aged Women.” And I was like, “This is why I’m going to dive into this book, because she sees me right away,” — like, this is what’s happening here. And you wrote that complicated, messy women are something we usually see in media in only younger women on shows like Girls or I May Destroy You. And then you go on to write that two groups that pop culture has often struggled with when it comes to representation are teenage girls and middle-aged women. I’d never really thought of that. And between mine and Rebecca’s households, we have a teenage girl and middle-aged women, and trying to kind of navigate those realities in media and beyond are really interesting. So what do you think? Why are those two groups missing in kind of, like, a larger pop culture picture?

Lisa
When I was writing the book, I turned 50. So I was thinking a lot about middle-aged women and representations of middle-aged women in pop culture, and I think sort of starting to feel a bit invisible myself. So I went to pop culture kind of looking for answers, you know, as I sometimes do. I think, you know, when it comes to middle-aged women and teenagers, I think representation of both has improved a bit in recent years. I think both are more visible in pop culture and treated with more respect than they used to be, which is great. You know, there’s still work to do. I feel like when I’m talking about this book, the phrase I keep coming back to is “There’s still work to do,” — you know, “Everything, there’s still work to do.”

But I think, for example, thinking about, you know, teenagers, young women, I think we take music or art made by young women much more seriously than we used to. You know, like I say, we still have work to do, but, you know, I was reading a big profile interview with Olivia Rodrigo, and I think her music is received and covered by the press in a much less dismissive way than, say, when we talked about Britney Spears’s music when Britney was starting out. So I think there’s much more respect for young women not just as creators, but also as consumers. And I think this translates into seeing their voices and their stories represented more in pop culture, in television, in movies, in books — you know, but like I say, there’s, of course, always still work to do.

For middle-aged women, I think representation has increased, and I talk about this in the book. And, you know, like I say, I thought about this a lot as my 50th birthday was looming. I never thought I would have a problem with turning 50, but I kind of turned into a bit of a cliché. But, you know, the middle-aged women I see now — you know, whether it’s Julia Louis-Dreyfus in Veep, or Kate Winslet in Mare of Easttown, you know, they’re very different than the middle-aged women I saw growing up — you know, which were the Golden Girls or, you know, Mrs. Cunningham on Happy Days, or Mrs. Roper on Three’s Company.

Which is great, but I also still see a particular type of middle-aged woman, and this is kind of what bothers me. And, you know, she’s married or she’s divorced, she usually has kids. You know, she’s white, she’s cisgendered, she’s heterosexual, she’s thin. There’s a particular idea, I think, of what women should have achieved by a certain age. And I think that’s kind of the problem I have. You know, as someone who maybe, you know, hasn’t achieved these things, you know, am I kind of a failure because I don’t kind of match this representation of middle-aged women in pop culture? And I think that really needs to change.

Rebecca
When I think of, like, the perfect middle age, I think of Julianne Moore. She’s thin, beautiful, achieved so much. So if you think middle age and you think her, you’re like, “Wow, middle age is so wonderful and beautiful.” And, like, she’s rich in her New York brownstone. But I have to interrupt that for myself — that actually, you know, middle age is hairs on our chin as you say, Nat, and so many other things. I mean, how do we deal with this nostalgia? You talk so much about Kurt Cobain in your book. The nostalgia we have for, like, Kurt Cobain versus the wrath we have for Courtney Love. I mean, what do we do with that? And has this changed who we venerate? The Vanity Fair article of Jennifer Aniston is the one that sold so many copies.

Lisa
Yeah, I talk about Jennifer Aniston — particularly about how much the tabloid press loves to talk about how Jennifer Aniston, you know, was single and didn’t have kids. And, you know, she was kind of this tabloid target in how much money she made for the tabloids. And if you put single, sad, lonely Jen on the cover of Us Weekly, you would sell a ton of magazines, which is unfortunate.

Rebecca
It’s not quite nostalgia, but that’s what we venerate and that’s what we love — is that kind of nice girl, vulnerable, and not sort of this brash character of Courtney Love or others that you reference. Amy Winehouse — we can’t be nostalgic for her.

Lisa
We can be nostalgic for her downfall. But you know, Jen, there’s this narrative — you know, sad Jen sitting in her big Hollywood mansion, you know, with her Angelina Jolie burn book, you know. America’s sweetheart, you know, was involved in this messy kind of divorce, and Brad and Angie having an affair, so… and the tabloids, you know, they love to promote that narrative. And it’s really sad to see, you know? It’s really sad to see someone like Jennifer Aniston again and again on these covers of magazines — you know, sad single lonely Jen.

Natalie
Have you been to the Cause exhibit yet at the AGO?

Lisa
I have not, no. How is it?

Natalie
It’s really great. It’s worth a visit, 100%, but it’s so interesting because the whole kind of, like, summary of it is it’s the appropriation of pop culture. And so you’ve got these characters like, you know, The Simpsons, but then their faces will be reshaped and kind of modified. And there’s a really interesting idea in it. And I’m having, like, a moment, if I was an artist and a collage artist, like truly, I would take a picture of Jennifer Aniston and then, like, I would collage on top of her face ovaries. Because that’s, like, the appropriation of her as like a pop culture icon, but then, like, truly sort of what people saw in her for so long, what the magazines saw. Like, she was a moneymaker for them if the talk was about her ovaries.

Lisa
Yeah, and it’s interesting because I talk about this in the book, but she did this kind of Allure magazine — which is, like, a women’s fashion / beauty magazine. for their last issue they had her on the cover. And she did this big interview where she talked about kind of her struggles with IVF and, you know, trying to conceive and it was, you know, a story that I think a lot of women could relate to. And she was finally talking about this and, you know, it wasn’t kind of the version of events that the media wanted to talk about with Jen, you know? So they were very quick to kind of brush over the IVF story and go back to, you know, the sad single Jen who maybe one day will have kids.

You know, it was heartbreaking to read this interview where she was really candid and really open about her struggles. And they sort of couldn’t appreciate that. Instead, it was back to the narrative of sad, single, lonely Jen — or they focused on her looks and they, you know, talked about what she was wearing or, you know, how she looks good for 50 plus. You know, that kind of stuff — which is really, really sad to see because like I said, you know, the IVF story was something I’m sure a lot of women could relate to and, something she was finally kind of talking about, and they were just having none of it because it wasn’t the story they wanted to promote about Jen, and had been promoting for decades.

Natalie
Again — depressing.

Lisa
Again.

Natalie
A truth. Oh man.

Rebecca
And now, some housekeeping. Hey Reframeables: do you get something from these conversations? Would you consider becoming a supporter on Patreon? For as little as $2 a month, you could help to keep this show going. It’s meaningful financially, and relationally — it feels like a hug. For our Patreon supporters, we do mini-episodes which we call Life Hacks and Enhancers — our five best things in a week. You could also tip us on our Ko-fi account, where Natalie’s recipe book is also for sale. Oh, and tell us what you want to hear more of — listener messages make our week. And don’t forget to subscribe to our newsletter. All the links are in our show notes. Love, Nat and Bec.

How do we interrupt these narratives?

Lisa
I don’t know. I mean, I think it’s really hard because when you have something like, you know, Jennifer Aniston on the cover of Us Weekly and it sells so many copies, you know, it’s capitalism, right? How do you break that? How do you break this, you know, misogynistic society that we live in? So one of the things thinking about, you know, when we’re thinking about nostalgia and legacy and breaking the cycle of these things is thinking about who is telling stories and who is celebrating legacies, you know? And we talked about grunge, when I was writing some of the essays in the book, I was looking at a lot of these anniversary issues of music magazines that celebrated grunge or celebrated Britpop or celebrated hip-hop, and I would consistently see the legacies written about by men, or framed by men. You know, men were the gatekeepers of what was important and what was worthy of being remembered. And I think the more we can try and dismantle that structure and add more diversity in terms of voices and stories and listen to people when they tell their stories and respect them and give them space — like, I think maybe that’s part of kind of breaking this idea of, you know, whose legacy gets celebrated and whose nostalgia gets celebrated.

Rebecca
It’s such a good point though, just the listening — because Courtney Love, I hadn’t even done a deep dive into her really until I read your essay. But you mentioned that she tried to shape her narrative over time and change it. And so she became an actor and, you know, did all these interesting things, but interviewers kept wanting to pull her back to her original narrative, right?

Lisa
You know, with Courtney, it was someone who they never allowed her to change, you know? You know, she made the People vs. Larry Flint, she was nominated for acting awards. You know, she had a different style on the red carpet. She was dating Edward Norton, the actor. Like, she was kind of going in a different direction, and people kept wanting to pull her back to this old idea of Courtney. And I remember there was this famous interview that she did to promote The People vs. Larry Flint, and I think it was Barbara Walters or Diane Sawyer interviewing (I want to say Barbara Walters). But, you know Courtney’s there to talk about The People vs. Larry Flint, and to talk about this movie that was a success and that she was getting these rave reviews for. And the first question she was asked was, “Are you on drugs?” Like, “Are you on heroin right now?” You know, “Have you ever done heroin in front of your child?”

You know, like, people were really unable to accept that this woman could change, that she could evolve. You know, that she wasn’t kind of this messy, lipstick-smeared musician, you know — that she was going in a different direction. And I think we see that kind of all the time. We see pop culture have this particular idea of a woman and kind of keep her in that box. And it was awful to see Courtney, like, trying to talk about this movie, and there was someone, you know, the first question, “Are you on drugs right now? Are you high on heroin?” Like, give me a break, come on, you know?

Natalie
And that even sort of says something deeply to me about the way that I then interact with… not pop culture kind of stars, but taking that lesson into just living life. That when I connect with somebody that maybe I haven’t seen in a little bit, instead of going back to, you know, maybe an idea I might have of them based on a past experience, trying to listen to hear what is them now. Because that’s certainly what I want for folks with me, right? I don’t want to be remembered solely for what I was at 27, which was a very hard time in my life. I’d much rather be known for what I am now at 45. I think I’m more interesting and all sorts of things, right? So it’s just funny. If I want people to let me live as, like, Natalie today, then that is a cool lesson to take forward from what happens in pop culture representation for sure.

Lisa
Yeah, and I think it’s really sad that, you know, Courtney Love, she’s done a lot and I think, “Oh really?” You know, we kind of have this habit of tying women to the men in their lives. You know, the only way we can talk about Courtney Love is in the context of Kurt Cobain, you know — and Kurt Cobain’s been dead for 30 years next year, you know? Or her as the grieving widow, you know? We cling to these kinds of things.

Rebecca
Can I just ask, like… your friends who won’t let you talk about Courtney Love? Like, you’ve made such a good argument in the book. I’m just like, “I don’t know how you could not appreciate Courtney Love.” So you have friends that would really want to disparage her or would just say, “No, you’re not giving equal value to Kurt Cobain?” I’m just curious.

Lisa
A bit of both. Like, I think men (and I’m a huge Nirvana fan, I’m a huge Kurt Cobain fan, I’m also a huge Courtney fan)… I think for men it is really they will not, you know, hear anything about Courtney. If you say something positive about Courtney, well that means you don’t like Kurt Cobain, or you don’t like Nirvana. And I think all these things can be held in the same regard.

Natalie
At the same time.

Lisa
Yeah, at the same time — it is possible to do that. You know, I think Courtney’s kind of a lightning rod and people feel very strongly about her and have very strong opinions. And I think it is hard to change those opinions, and I think a lot of people really do have this very kind of, you know, 1994 idea of Courtney Love, and think she’s kind of a mess and she’s kind of problematic. And, you know, I’m doing my part to try and change that. I think there are some friends where we just, like, got sick of arguing about it too. So they’re like, “How about if we don’t talk about it?” And I’m like, “You know what, I’d like to still be your friend, like, 10 years from now. So sure, I’ll give it up.” I’m sure they’ll skip over that part of the book. But you know, most of the fights I would get in in the 90s at parties were with men who, you know — it was Courtney’s fault that Kurt died, or that he was a drug addict, or all these kinds of things. You know, we love to blame women for the downfall of men.

Natalie
Now in terms of, like, the idea of sharing parts of yourself in writing, which happens — I mean, Becca and I, as writers, we experience that all the time, the vulnerability part that you can’t get away from, and maybe we don’t want to escape from, right? But in the middle of your book, you actually share a super honest telling of your living with OCD and how the depiction of it in pop culture is actually not very helpful — like, at all. And this is a quote from the book: “The actual suffering of those with OCD has been replaced by puns and punchlines.” And — so true, because I like to think that the kids are going to save us all because they’re so much further ahead in terms of, like, how they’ve kind of come down the road with more diversity-focused language. And yet I will still hear, “Oh, it’s my OCD acting up,” you know, with younger students that I used to work with — like, in high school. So that is still, as you say, like, a punchline.

Yet you also write beautifully about how it is showing up differently in some shows, like Girls — and you problematize Girls and some of what it shows. But then you say that the character of Hannah really showed you, like, a super honest presentation of OCD in a way that you were like, “That’s me feeling seen on screen,” right? So can you tell us about that? Like, does where things have failed in pop culture kind of now get outweighed by the good of how it’s starting to be reshaped? Or is this just another example of where there’s more room for learning?

Lisa
Yeah. I mean, I think there’s always more room for learning. And you know, I’ve had OCD for many years of my life. And, you know, one of the things I really started to look at is how it was portrayed in pop culture — how it’s been and how it continues to be portrayed in pop culture. And certainly I have a lot of problems with how it’s portrayed. You know, I talk particularly in the essay in the book about the television show Friends, because it’s a portrayal that particularly bothered me and continues to bother me when I watch reruns, because I think OCD was really played for laughs on the show and really reduced to a punchline.

And I think where it really, really started to bother me is I saw how people in my own life talked about OCD and how their viewpoints were really influenced by the portrayals they saw on shows like Friends, you know, where there were kind of these jokes made about Monica — you know, she’s a neat freak and a control freak and that kind of thing. And I talk about Girls because I think an important thing about the depiction of OCD in Girls is that the show’s creator, Lena Dunham, actually has OCD and she brings that understanding to the show, and I think that’s really important. You know, she’s writing a character with OCD — you know, the character of Hannah who is played by Lena Dunham. And she has that lived experience herself, and it really shows when you see it played out — and I think it’s in season two.

But for me watching those episodes, and I still go back and watch them quite a bit, is that it was the first time I’d seen a realistic portrayal of OCD, and I actually cried the first time I watched it. And, you know, for me, when I had friends that watched that storyline on Girls, it made it more comfortable for them to talk to me about OCD. And, you know, I think they understood it a little bit better — you know, particularly Hannah’s character as a checker and a counter. You know, OCD takes many forms, but that’s kind of what I am as well. So I think seeing that and having that written by someone who actually has that lived experience is really important, and not seeing it kind of played for laughs or people saying, you know, “I’m so OCD,” just because they like their pencils arranged in a certain way.

So, you know, I have a lot of problems with the television show Girls, mainly its lack of diversity, but certainly not its OCD portrayals. You know, I think it was really important, that kind of storyline and that portrayal — certainly for me. And I think when I wrote that essay — some of the essays, versions of them appeared elsewhere, and it was a piece that was published in The Walrus, and I had so many messages from people who had OCD or had friends and family who had OCD. And some of them did bring up, you know, seeing that depiction on Girls and how it helped them understand it better.

Rebecca
So was girls kind of a pivotal moment for you in terms of representation? Or are you just thinking of that, that particular…?

Lisa
I think it was in terms of OCD, for sure. It was the first time I’d seen, like, a realistic portrayal.

Rebecca
Because you also write that: “Pop culture’s lack of compassion and sensitivity made me too scared to talk about my own issues.” So you see it in some ways, but it’s certainly not happening everywhere. We saw that video just recently of Britney Spears dancing with knives. Did you see that one that was trending?

Lisa
I did.

Rebecca
So do you see things differently now in terms of how pop culture frames narratives and impacts conversations around mental health?

Lisa
I think for sure it’s changing, you know? I talk in the book about Britney Spears, particularly at that time in the early / mid-2000s, you know, when you would see a cover of Us Weekly with a picture of Britney Spears with her head shaved, you know, and the cover line “Help Me.” Or, you know, you had People magazine offering to take readers inside Britney Spears’s breakdown. You know, there was a lot of talk about Britney and her mental health. And I think there’s more sensitivity now, for sure. And we even see magazines and late night talk show hosts apologizing to women like Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan for how they mocked and ridiculed their mental health and addiction struggles during that period in the 2000s. And I think now there’s certainly less stigmas around mental health and much more sensitivity, but I’ll repeat the thing I always say: there’s still so much work to be done.

And I also think there’s a gender bias in how we talk about celebrities and mental health, for sure. And I saw it when I was researching this book. You know, we applaud Pete Davidson because he talks openly about depression or, you know, being bipolar. Or, you know, I read a story Shawn Mendes had cancelled tour dates to deal with his mental health, and he was being kind of applauded for that and celebrated for being proactive about his mental health and prioritizing that. And I think we don’t see that with female celebrities, especially young women. You know, there’s still a ways to go in terms of having that sensitivity when we talk about young women and young female celebrities and mental health.

Natalie
In terms of that idea of like the redemption arc (and I really love the way that you framed that), but in media, who’s going to be the next one that’s going to finally earn their moment for an apology and a redemption arc?

Lisa
There’s so many to choose from, right? I would say, and I think this is happening right now, definitely Britney Spears. Like, she is someone I have really rooted for for a long time. And I feel like it’s finally happening. You know, we’re recording this the week that her memoir is coming out, and I think she’s finally getting the opportunity to tell her story. For decades, she is someone whose story has been told by others. There’s so many rumours about her, so much gossip, so much misunderstanding. And you know, she’s finally getting to tell her truth. She’s also, you know, for more than a decade was under this really strict conservatorship and she couldn’t write a check or drive a car, let alone talk about her life. So she’s someone I feel like it’s her time. And I want her so badly to have a redemption arc.

Rebecca
You end with this line: “Pop culture believes that drama is the only art women can make.” How? We want you to be the answer for us, Lisa. How do we flip this script as consumers of pop culture?

Lisa
Woah! Oh, yeah. I mean that is, I think, in an essay about female feuds and how we love to see female celebrities battling for the top spot, and there can only be one woman in the top spot. You know, instead of focusing on their art, we focus on their feuds or their relationships or their addiction struggles. And I was writing that line in the context of, you know, I think I’d mentioned I’d read this big New York Times profile with Olivia Rodrigo. And, you know, one of the questions they asked her was, “Have you seen the Eras tour?” You know, “Have you gone to see Taylor Swift’s show?” You know, there’s been rumours that Olivia and Taylor don’t get along, and kind of trying to set up this feuding dynamic, and talking about that instead of all these other interesting things you could talk about — you know, her music and her success.

So I think often, yeah, women, there’s all these things you could talk about — their awards, their accomplishments, their art, but we just want to talk about their personal lives, the juicy details of their lives. And, you know, even Britney’s memoir, she’s finally getting the chance to tell her truth, and so much of the lead up to the release of the memoir was, you know, these stories about what actually happened with Justin Timberlake when they dated, you know, in the late 90s, early 2000s. You know, we talked about Jennifer Aniston earlier. Let’s focus on, you know, what Jennifer Aniston does as an actress instead of focusing about, you know, her divorces or, you know, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, that kind of thing. You know, it sometimes feels like we don’t want to talk about women’s art. We just want to talk about the drama in their personal lives.

Rebecca
Can I just ask though, how do we marry that with the idea of, you know, I’m thinking of the recent Pulitzer winner Annie Ernaux and how she talks about her personal life and her work, and sort of this need to elevate the personal in our work too, and that sometimes women are drawn to that. I think of my own tendency to want to journal and write about myself. So how do we marry that, you two? Like, our obsession with digging into the salacious details in pop culture, versus our own need to honour the mundane and personal lives in our writing?

Natalie
I think that where Lisa’s going in the book with, like, the mundane is beautiful. And I love that Ernaux idea, except that in pop culture, it seems to be about a pitting. So it’s like the… is mundanity a word? Of, like, these kind of relational breakdowns as opposed to just the singular experience. So maybe it’s about separating that, because why does it always have to be about sort of setting up for the competition and then the takedown — which is actually like, you know, our earlier conversation point about women and failure. So I think that there’s got to be that.

I wonder if it actually comes down to… Rebecca, you and I are going to save the world here with this one, it’s about the questions we ask. No, but, like, for real. Like, in terms of the way that media on a podcast — you know, Lisa, you said at the very beginning, before we pressed record that you appreciated our questions. Well, like, those questions take time and effort, right? Questions, formulating a solid, thoughtful question takes time. And it’s way easier to just kind of go to the drama if the drama makes for, like, a quick response. And so it requires time spent on learning the person and their details and their beautiful, boring, mundane interests to, like, dig in and then find a new question. I wonder if that’s the job of… well, we know that that would be the job of the media kind of writ large, but certainly of these sort of smaller, more independent voices maybe. Like what you’re doing, Lisa, with your magazine.

Lisa
We live in a world that loves the soundbite. So the drama, the ladies feuding, you know, it lends itself well to headlines and clickbait and the soundbites that we love to consume. But it was really depressing to research female feuds and then to kind of see that this is what the media focuses on. And, you know, I’m thinking about celebrity memoirs because I’m thinking about Britney’s book coming out, you know. And I’ve read a lot of celebrity memoirs written by women and a lot by men and there’s a really distinct difference between them. And I think women can spend pages and pages talking about their accomplishments and their awards, and then when their memoirs are covered it’s these juicy kind of details, you know, that kind of come out in the press. You know, I’m sure there is much more in Britney’s memoir than just, you know, her breakup with Justin Timberlake. You know, but this is kind of what is focused on and, you know, what is going to get people reading the book, probably. You know, we want to sell books too.

But it’s kind of depressing to think of, you know, women making this great art. You know, it’s depressing to me when I go to the news stand and I see Jennifer Aniston — you know, she’s been on the cover for decades and decades, the same story about sad single Jen. It seems like she’s doing fine to me — I don’t know her personally. That Hollywood mansion she’s alone in looks pretty nice to me, but I don’t know. But you know, like I say, you know, when she shared her IVF story, which I think was probably for her a really difficult story to share, and, you know, the media just didn’t want to focus on that. You know, they wanted to talk about her looks, or when is she, you know… well, maybe she’ll still have kids one day, you know?

Rebecca
Yeah, because the world doesn’t like ovaries. It’s true.

Lisa
And the world can’t accept that Jennifer Aniston just doesn’t want to, you know?

Rebecca
Can we do a really quick speed round with you? It’s kind of fun to give listeners the mundane take on your life. You’ve shared all your super knowledge, but also just what’s the regular Lisa like? Ok, are you ready?

Lisa
Ok, yeah. I’m scared, but I’m ready.

Rebecca
Ok. What’s the last new skill you learned?

Lisa
The last new skill I learned? I teach at a college — I teach in the magazine publishing program. And for years I had been using these really boring PowerPoint slides. And I think my students were like, “How old is she? Why are these slides so boring? What program is she using?” So I learned Canva, this program to make my slides more dynamic. And I think the students were very proud of me that now I have these dynamic slides. I think they were like, “Oh my god, what background… and the text is all…” So that was my skill.

Natalie
Ok, what is the most fun thing you’ve done this morning?

Lisa
Oh, I’m not really a morning person. The most fun thing I did this morning, I spent a little bit of time with my cat, who is a lovely little fellow, and then I ate this really… there’s a café in my office building and they have these super yummy lemon blueberry danishes. And I kind of ate that, and I believe in, like,savouring just, like, a nice coffee and a nice danish, because I think I tend to eat things quickly and on the fly when I’m doing other things. So that was kind of fun to do. But I haven’t been up for that long because I’m not a morning person, so…

Rebecca
There’s so much more fun to come. How would your siblings or a close friend describe you? In three words.

Lisa
Oh. I’m an only child, so sometimes my friends describe me as “only child,” but not in a good way. I think they would describe me as funny, loyal, and supportive, which I like.

Natalie
What do you need to be creative?

Lisa
Apparently misogyny in pop culture? No — other people. Like, I find listening to what other people do really creative and really inspiring. And I am so inspired by, you know, getting to teach and what all the students do and what they’re interested in. That really inspires me, and the creative kind of things they do.

Natalie
That was, like, the ultimate reframe right there, by the way.

Lisa
Was it?

Natalie
If you could make misogyny useful, I think that’s brilliant — so yay.

Rebecca
Speaking of taking time with your food, what’s for dinner tonight?

Lisa
What is for dinner tonight? I didn’t take anything out but I have, like, a full day of stuff so I will probably order something yummy. I’ll probably order some Thai food or something.

Natalie
Self-care.

Lisa
Self-care, yes, that is my regimen. I will probably, like, pour a glass of wine, get some Thai food, and get some Real Housewives on the TV. I’m a little bit behind on my New York, so… That’s my self-care, Real Housewives.

Natalie
Thank you, Lisa, for taking this time with us to unpack really hard stuff. It’s hard, pop culture.

Lisa
Yeah. And I have to say, like, thank you again for the great questions. Like, I love having them in advance because as you could see, I did prepare notes and stuff. But, like, really great questions and lots of great stuff to think about, so I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Rebecca
Yeah, same. I learned a lot from you and just… it’s made me very thoughtful, so thank you.

Lisa
Thank you. Go forth to parties and talk about Courtney Love.